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| 1 | UNITED STATES FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION
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| 2 | and
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| 3 | UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
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| 4 |
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| 5 |
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| 6 |
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| 7 | SHERMAN ACT SECTION 2 JOINT HEARING
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| 8 | UNDERSTANDING SINGLE-FIRM BEHAVIOR:
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| 9 | MISLEADING AND DECEPTIVE CONDUCT SESSION
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| 10 | WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 6, 2006
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| 11 |
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| 12 |
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| 13 |
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| 14 |
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| 15 | HELD AT:
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| 16 | UNITED STATES FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION
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| 17 | 601 NEW JERSEY AVENUE, N.W.
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| 18 | WASHINGTON, D.C.
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| 19 | 9:30 A.M. TO 1:00 P.M.
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| 20 |
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| 21 |
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| 22 |
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| 23 |
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| 24 | Reported and transcribed by:
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| 25 | Susanne Bergling, RMR-CLR |
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| 1 | MODERATORS:
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| 2 | RICHARD B. DAGEN
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| 3 | Special Counsel to the Director
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| 4 | Bureau of Competition, Federal Trade Commission
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| 5 | and
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| 6 | HILL B. WELLFORD
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| 7 | Counsel to the Assistant Attorney General
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| 8 | Antitrust Division, U.S. Department of Justice
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| 9 |
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| 10 | PANELISTS:
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| 11 |
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| 12 | Michael F. Brockmeyer
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| 13 | George S. Cary
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| 14 | Susan A. Creighton
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| 15 | R. Preston McAfee
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| 16 | Gil Ohana
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| 17 | Richard P. Rozek
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| 18 |
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| 19 |
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| 20 |
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| 21 |
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| 22 |
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| 23 |
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| 24 |
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| 25 | |
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| 1 | P R O C E E D I N G S
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| 2 | - - - - -
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| 3 | MR. DAGEN: Okay, good morning, everybody. I am
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| 4 | Richard Dagen, Special Counsel to the Director of the
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| 5 | Bureau of Competition and one of the moderators for this
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| 6 | session. My co-moderator is Hill Wellford, Counsel to
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| 7 | the Assistant Attorney General for Antitrust at the
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| 8 | Department of Justice. Before we start, I need to cover
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| 9 | a few housekeeping matters.
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| 10 | First, please turn off your cell phones,
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| 11 | BlackBerries and any other devices. Second, the
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| 12 | restrooms are outside the double doors and across the
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| 13 | lobby. There are signs to guide you. Third, one safety
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| 14 | tip, particularly for visitors, in the unlikely event
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| 15 | the building alarms go off, please proceed calmly and
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| 16 | quickly as instructed. If we must leave the building,
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| 17 | exit the New Jersey Avenue exit by the guard's desk, and
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| 18 | please follow the stream of FTC people to a gathering
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| 19 | point and await further instruction. Finally, we
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| 20 | request that you not make comments or ask questions
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| 21 | during the session. Thank you.
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| 22 | Now, today we are honored to have assembled a
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| 23 | distinguished panel of practitioners, consultants and
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| 24 | professors who are well versed in the issues we will
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| 25 | tackle today involving misleading and deceptive conduct. |
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| 1 | The hearing will be organized as follows: First, we
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| 2 | will hear an approximately 15-minute presentation from
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| 3 | each panelist. We will likely break after the fourth
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| 4 | panelist speaks, and after the break, hear from our
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| 5 | final two speakers. After the presentations, we will
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| 6 | have a round table discussion moderated by Hill Wellford
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| 7 | and me.
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| 8 | Our panelists today are Susan Creighton, who is
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| 9 | a partner at Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati and a
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| 10 | former director of the FTC's Bureau of Competition;
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| 11 | Preston McAfee, who is the J. Stanley Johnson Professor
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| 12 | of Business Economics and Management at the California
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| 13 | Institute of Technology; Gil Ohana, who is the Director,
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| 14 | Antitrust and Competition, Cisco Systems; Richard Rozek,
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| 15 | who is a senior vice president, NERA Economic
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| 16 | Consulting; Michael Brockmeyer, who is a partner at
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| 17 | Frommer Lawrence & Haug and an Adjunct Professor of Law
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| 18 | at the University of Maryland School of Law; and George
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| 19 | Cary, who is a partner at Cleary Gottlieb Steen &
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| 20 | Hamilton and a former Deputy Bureau Director of the
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| 21 | FTC's Bureau of Competition.
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| 22 | I want to thank the FTC and DOJ Section 2 staff
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| 23 | for organizing this session. This is the last Section 2
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| 24 | hearing for 2006, but the hearings will continue during
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| 25 | the first few months of 2007, so be sure to check the |
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| 1 | agencies' web sites for updates.
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| 2 | Second, I want to explain why a session entitled
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| 3 | Misleading and Deceptive Conduct is, in fact, a session
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| 4 | about Section 2 of the Sherman Act and not a hearing
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| 5 | being held by the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection.
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| 6 | Deceptive conduct is a type of exclusionary conduct that
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| 7 | has been the basis for antitrust liability under Section
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| 8 | 2. The Federal Trade Commission defined deception in
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| 9 | 1983, noting that the FTC "will find deception if there
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| 10 | is a representation, omission or practice that is likely
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| 11 | to mislead the consumer acting reasonably in the
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| 12 | circumstances to the consumer's detriment."
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| 13 | In In re Rambus, a matter involving conduct
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| 14 | before a standard-setting organization, the Commission
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| 15 | explained that the policy statement could be applied to
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| 16 | a Section 2 analysis, although it did not directly
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| 17 | equate the policy statement's definition of deception
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| 18 | with exclusionary conduct under Section 2. Consistent
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| 19 | with our general policy to avoid discussing cases during
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| 20 | the hearings that are currently in litigation, and
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| 21 | because the Rambus matter is still in administrative
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| 22 | litigation and there has not been a final appealable
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| 23 | judgment, we will not be discussing this case today.
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| 24 | There are a variety of scenarios under which
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| 25 | deceptive and misleading conduct may form the basis of a |
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| 1 | Section 2 antitrust violation, and this hearing is
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| 2 | designed to address many of them. Deception also may
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| 3 | encompass fraud, bad faith, falsehoods,
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| 4 | misrepresentations and misleading conduct. These terms
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| 5 | are related and sometimes used interchangeably. Such
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| 6 | conduct can occur in both the private and public sector.
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| 7 | Certain business torts and standard-setting activity may
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| 8 | provide the basis of Section 2 liability.
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| 9 | In one recent case, Conwood versus United States
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| 10 | Tobacco, the Sixth Circuit upheld a $1 billion treble
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| 11 | damages award. The allegations of exclusionary conduct
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| 12 | in Conwood included misrepresentations of sales data to
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| 13 | retailers as well as the destruction of competitors'
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| 14 | products and displays.
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| 15 | In United States versus Microsoft, the D.C.
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| 16 | Court of Appeals found that Microsoft engaged in
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| 17 | exclusionary conduct in violation of Section 2 when it
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| 18 | deceived Sun Microsystems and independent software
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| 19 | developers by offering them a set of Java implementation
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| 20 | tools that ostensibly would enable them to develop
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| 21 | cross-platform applications but could be executed only
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| 22 | by Microsoft's version of the Java runtime environment
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| 23 | for Windows.
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| 24 | Misleading and deceptive conduct in the context
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| 25 | of abuse of governmental processes can also be the basis |
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| 1 | for Section 2 liability. Such cases have included FDA
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| 2 | Orange Book listings and fraud on the Patent Office.
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| 3 | Now I would like to turn it over to Hill for a
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| 4 | few remarks.
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| 5 | MR. WELLFORD: Good morning. My name is Hill
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| 6 | Wellford. I am counsel to AAG Tom Barnett. The FTC and
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| 7 | DOJ are jointly sponsoring these hearings today to help
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| 8 | advance development of the law concerning the treatment
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| 9 | of unilateral conduct under the antitrust laws. This is
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| 10 | one of the most controversial areas even within Section
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| 11 | 2, which is controversial enough on its own, and I think
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| 12 | we should have a very good panel today. I have seen
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| 13 | some of these presentations that have come in, and I am
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| 14 | very much looking forward to the remarks that will be
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| 15 | presented by the panel. Thanks to my colleagues at the
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| 16 | FTC and the Division for organizing this. I will hand
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| 17 | it back over to Rich.
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| 18 | MR. DAGEN: So, I would like to introduce your
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| 19 | first speaker. Susan Creighton, as I mentioned before,
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| 20 | is a partner at Wilson Sonsini. Between 2001 and 2006,
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| 21 | she served at the Federal Trade Commission first as
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| 22 | Deputy Director and then as Director of the Bureau of
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| 23 | Competition. While at the FTC, she played a key role in
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| 24 | developing antitrust policy and made important
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| 25 | contributions about, among other things, the |
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| 1 | intersection of antitrust and intellectual property.
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| 2 | She is a frequent author of antitrust articles,
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| 3 | including a 2005 Antitrust Law Journal article entitled
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| 4 | "Cheap Exclusion" dealing with many of the issues we
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| 5 | will be discussing today.
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| 6 | Susan?
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| 7 | MS. CREIGHTON: Good morning. Let's see if I
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| 8 | can figure out how to make this thing move. That
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| 9 | worked, okay.
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| 10 | So, courts and enforcers long have recognized
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| 11 | that deception can constitute unlawful exclusionary
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| 12 | conduct under Section 2 of the Sherman Act. With
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| 13 | respect to deception in the context of private business
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| 14 | arrangements, probably the two most recent prominent
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| 15 | decisions are the D.C. Circuit decision in Microsoft and
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| 16 | the FTC's decision in Rambus. The potential for
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| 17 | deception in government proceedings to serve as the
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| 18 | basis for Section 2 liability is reflected in cases
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| 19 | stretching as far back as the Supreme Court's decision
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| 20 | in Walker Process and more recently has been a major
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| 21 | part of the FTC's enforcement agenda, as Rick mentioned,
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| 22 | in cases such as UNOCAL and the Orange Book listing
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| 23 | cases.
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| 24 | In my view, these cases are correct in holding
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| 25 | that deception can constitute a basis for finding |
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| 1 | exclusionary conduct under Section 2. Indeed, as my
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| 2 | co-authors and I argued in the article that Rick
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| 3 | referred to in the Antitrust Law Journal entitled "Cheap
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| 4 | Exclusion," deception and other forms of cheap exclusion
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| 5 | are potentially a very effective form of anticompetitive
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| 6 | conduct and properly should be a core focus of
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| 7 | enforcement efforts by the FTC, the Antitrust Division
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| 8 | and the state enforcement agencies.
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| 9 | In particular, in our article, we highlighted
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| 10 | three characteristics of such cheap exclusion, including
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| 11 | deception. First, it is cheap in the sense that it
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| 12 | costs little to the firm engaging in it. False
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| 13 | statements made during a governmental standard-setting
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| 14 | proceeding may be virtually costless, for example,
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| 15 | particularly for a firm that would have participated in
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| 16 | the regulatory proceeding in any event. These de
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| 17 | minimus costs compare favorably to the high costs that a
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| 18 | firm might incur, for example, through the low-cost
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| 19 | pricing or potentially strategies such as exclusive
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| 20 | dealing.
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| 21 | Second, the conduct also is cheap in the sense
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| 22 | of lacking any redeeming virtue. Deceptive conduct
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| 23 | unambiguously fails to enhance any party's efficiency,
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| 24 | provides no benefits short or long term to consumers,
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| 25 | and its economic effect produces only costs for the |
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| 1 | victims and wealth transfers to the firms engaging in
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| 2 | the conduct fully apart from its potential contribution
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| 3 | to market power.
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| 4 | Finally, it is also cheap in the relative sense
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| 5 | that it is a strategy where the costs are often likely
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| 6 | to be far outstripped by the anticompetitive benefits.
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| 7 | As the Antitrust Division explained in its business
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| 8 | review letter, for example, "Early in the
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| 9 | standard-setting process, standard-setting members often
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| 10 | can choose among multiple substitute technological
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| 11 | solutions, some of which may be patented. Once a
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| 12 | particular technology is chosen and the standard is
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| 13 | developed, however, it can be extremely expensive or
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| 14 | even impossible to substitute one technology for
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| 15 | another." Misrepresentations that enable a firm to
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| 16 | charge higher discriminatory royalty rates after lock-in
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| 17 | therefore may enable the firm to enjoy substantial and
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| 18 | durable market power.
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| 19 | Because deceptive conduct ordinarily has no
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| 20 | efficiency or other procompetitive benefits, other forms
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| 21 | of cheap exclusion do not provide the same type of
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| 22 | trade-off that we see with respect to most other forms
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| 23 | of exclusionary conduct that have been the subject of
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| 24 | the previous hearings, predatory pricing, bundling,
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| 25 | exclusive dealing and the like. With respect to these |
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| 1 | forms of conduct, it is generally recognized that they
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| 2 | will often, maybe even overwhelmingly often, be
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| 3 | procompetitive rather than anticompetitive. The
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| 4 | challenge, therefore, is to distinguish the times when
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| 5 | the conduct might be anticompetitive without unduly
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| 6 | chilling the procompetitive conduct.
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| 7 | With respect to deceptive or other opportunistic
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| 8 | conduct, however, there is no similar concern that we
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| 9 | will be unduly chilling deception or opportunism. In
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| 10 | fact, sort of phrased that way, I do not think we
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| 11 | generally sort of think of being concerned about
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| 12 | chilling deception. In this context, cheap exclusion
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| 13 | may be viewed as something like the Section 2 analog to
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| 14 | Section 1 price fixing; that is, we are not unduly
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| 15 | concerned with overdeterrence of this behavior, and it
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| 16 | is at the same time at the far end of the spectrum for
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| 17 | Section 2 purposes from predatory pricing.
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| 18 | If there is a category of conduct that we are
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| 19 | particularly concerned not to chill under Section 2, it
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| 20 | is price cutting. With respect to misrepresentations
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| 21 | and deception, by contrast, we have and should have no
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| 22 | such scruples.
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| 23 | Screening tests designed to find the single
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| 24 | exclusionary goat in the vast herd of procompetitive
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| 25 | sheep, therefore, are not well suited and should not be |
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| 1 | applied to exclusionary fraud or deception. The profit
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| 2 | sacrifice test, for example, originally conceived as a
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| 3 | means to screen out legitimate pricing behavior, does
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| 4 | not work well when applied to conduct that is not
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| 5 | legitimate, whether or not it is exclusionary.
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| 6 | For example, fraudulent regulatory filings that
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| 7 | can be made at de minimus costs may have powerful
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| 8 | exclusionary effects due to the operation of extrinsic
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| 9 | legal schemes. At the same time, such conduct also may
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| 10 | be profitable even if it does not result in the creation
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| 11 | of durable market power by harming competitors and
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| 12 | generating profits for the filing firms, yet the mere
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| 13 | fact of the profitability of this illegitimate behavior
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| 14 | tells us nothing about whether the behavior or the
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| 15 | fraudulent filing is legitimate efficiency-enhancing
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| 16 | behavior.
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| 17 | Now, if the balancing question typically raised
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| 18 | regarding Section 2 conduct is not present here, what
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| 19 | other concerns are raised regarding exclusionary fraud
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| 20 | or deception? It seems to me that there are three
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| 21 | concerns that are raised most frequently. The first is
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| 22 | causation. This issue underlies a considerable portion
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| 23 | of the Commission's legal analysis in Rambus, for
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| 24 | example, and I'll return to that. The second is that
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| 25 | antitrust should not be used as a kind of ex post |
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| 1 | gap-filler for poorly written standard-setting rules or
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| 2 | legal regulations. And the third is that we should not
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| 3 | use antitrust where other laws, such as business torts
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| 4 | and contract law, already can be used to reach and
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| 5 | prohibit the conduct.
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| 6 | Let me address each of these three objections
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| 7 | briefly in turn. First, with respect to causation, it
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| 8 | seems to me that contrary to the concern about causation
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| 9 | often expressed in this area, exclusionary deception, in
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| 10 | fact, often occurs in circumstances where the
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| 11 | environment is, in fact, conducive to the acquisition or
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| 12 | maintenance of durable market power. Indeed, for
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| 13 | deceptive conduct in the government context, it seems to
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| 14 | me that this is often likely to be the rule rather than
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| 15 | the exception.
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| 16 | The reason is simple. If the exclusion operates
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| 17 | by force of law, the exercise of market power will not
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| 18 | induce new entry, and the entry barriers created by the
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| 19 | need to change laws or regulations may be formidable
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| 20 | indeed. The UNOCAL case, for example, highlights these
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| 21 | effects. Now, that's in the government context.
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| 22 | In the private context, as the Commission
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| 23 | discussed in Rambus, profitable private ventures may
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| 24 | also often be conducive to the use of deception to
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| 25 | acquire or maintain durable market power. In instances |
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| 1 | where business relations are characterized by
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| 2 | cooperation rather than competition, for instance, the
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| 3 | Java development program in Microsoft or in instances of
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| 4 | private standard-setting activity, deception may be
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| 5 | difficult to deter or counter, and the resulting
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| 6 | lock-in, especially in network industries, may be
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| 7 | difficult or impossible to overcome once the deception
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| 8 | has been detected.
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| 9 | Now, in this regard, deceptive advertising,
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| 10 | where the statements are both ascertainable and
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| 11 | falsifiable, may actually be the exception rather than
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| 12 | the rule. In Caribbean Broadcasting, for example, the
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| 13 | alleged deceptive statement was one that was made
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| 14 | publicly, and it would appear to be one that would be
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| 15 | readily falsifiable. Did the company's broadcast, in
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| 16 | fact, reach the entire Caribbean region or not? That
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| 17 | seemed to be an answer that you probably could pretty
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| 18 | much figure out with a couple of guys and radios.
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| 19 | Now, by comparison, in Conwood, if I understand
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| 20 | the allegations correctly, the alleged deceptive
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| 21 | statements were made in private communications to
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| 22 | retailers. It is unclear how or when the plaintiff
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| 23 | would have been able to learn of them, and hence, to
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| 24 | counteract them.
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| 25 | One might also consider a statement that is less |
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| 1 | readily falsifiable. For example, statements claiming
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| 2 | patent infringement by a competitor's product without
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| 3 | any identification of the particular patents in issue or
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| 4 | anything sort of as formal as some kind of warning
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| 5 | letter that would make it possible to respond to the
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| 6 | allegation might be the kind of tipping event you could
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| 7 | expect potentially to have a forceful impact in network
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| 8 | industries.
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| 9 | Now, the second concern raised regarding
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| 10 | exclusionary deception is what I have called the
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| 11 | gap-filling problem. The concern here, as I understand
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| 12 | it, is that antitrust is effectively being used in these
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| 13 | circumstances to take care of problems that could have
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| 14 | been solved ex ante through more careful drafting,
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| 15 | either the Orange Book regulations or the
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| 16 | standard-setting rules.
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| 17 | Now, here I raise with some trepidation as a
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| 18 | lawyer on a panel with economists who may, in fact,
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| 19 | provide a more subtle understanding of this point, it
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| 20 | seems to me that the insight of transaction cost
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| 21 | economics is applicable here, and I have up here a quote
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| 22 | from Oliver Williamson. "The general rubric out of
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| 23 | which transaction cost economics works is that of hazard
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| 24 | mitigation through ex post governance. It being the
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| 25 | case that all complex contracts are unavoidably |
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| 1 | incomplete, the fiction of comprehensive contracting,
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| 2 | which concentrates all of the contracting action on ex
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| 3 | ante incentive alignment, is untenable."
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| 4 | Now, I have also referred in my slides here and
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| 5 | also in the "Cheap Exclusion" article by analogy to an
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| 6 | article written some time ago by former FTC chairman Tim
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| 7 | Muris regarding the judicial doctrine of the duty of
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| 8 | good faith and fair dealing. His point, as I understand
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| 9 | it, in the article was that parties to a contract cannot
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| 10 | adequately defend themselves ex ante against
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| 11 | opportunistic conduct that undermines the parties'
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| 12 | legitimate expectations, perhaps even the purpose of the
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| 13 | contract, at least not without incurring wasteful and
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| 14 | inefficient transaction costs of the type that
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| 15 | Williamson was describing.
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| 16 | So, the judicial imposition of good faith and
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| 17 | fair dealing is an efficient means of protecting parties
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| 18 | against conduct that is contrary to their legitimate
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| 19 | expectations but not necessarily contrary to the precise
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| 20 | language of the contract.
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| 21 | By analogy, the antitrust laws can and should
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| 22 | serve to protect against deceptive or opportunistic
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| 23 | misuse, for example, of collaborative ventures such as
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| 24 | standard-setting organizations where such conduct
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| 25 | defeats the very purpose of such arrangements and that |
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| 1 | which makes them acceptable under the antitrust laws.
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| 2 | That intuition, I think, for example, is what the
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| 3 | Supreme Court was driving at when it said in Allied Tube
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| 4 | that, "Private standard-setting by associations is
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| 5 | permitted under the antitrust laws only on the
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| 6 | understanding that it will be conducted in a nonpartisan
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| 7 | manner offering procompetitive benefits."
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| 8 | Now, although standard-setting organizations can
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| 9 | and should exercise self-help to the extent possible,
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| 10 | the insight of transaction cost economics is that no
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| 11 | amount of ex ante bargaining can ever perfectly secure
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| 12 | collaborative ventures or other government regulations,
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| 13 | such as the Orange Book, against opportunism in
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| 14 | circumstances where it turns the purpose of the
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| 15 | collaboration or the regulation on its head and in a way
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| 16 | that it threatens the creation of durable market power.
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| 17 | Moreover, in other contexts, such as the Java
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| 18 | development in Microsoft, the collaboration will not
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| 19 | even be pursuant to elaborate written contracts. In
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| 20 | such circumstances, antitrust law in my view properly
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| 21 | provides part of the ex post governance structure that
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| 22 | helps ensure ex ante that such collaborations and
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| 23 | regulations achieve their intended procompetitive
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| 24 | purposes.
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| 25 | Now, finally, sometimes the question whether |
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| 1 | deceptive exclusion should be subject to Section 2 gets
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| 2 | posed wrongly in my view as whether the conduct at issue
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| 3 | is a business tort, and if it is, why then do we need to
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| 4 | subject it to the antitrust laws? I think that this
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| 5 | asks the question through the wrong end of the
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| 6 | telescope. The right question to ask is, is an
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| 7 | inefficient exclusionary act that is likely to have
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| 8 | caused market power nonetheless excused under Section 2
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| 9 | because it also violates another law or statute?
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| 10 | Now, the reason it is important to ask the right
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| 11 | question is the old true saying, the wrong answer is
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| 12 | what the wrong question begets. Here, asking first
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| 13 | whether the conduct is tortious and then why do we need
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| 14 | antitrust is likely to be misleading in at least three
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| 15 | ways.
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| 16 | First, these business torts and contract rights
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| 17 | vindicate the rights of the wrong people. In a
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| 18 | standard-setting organization, for example, we are not
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| 19 | concerned ultimately with the rights of the
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| 20 | standard-setting organization or its participants, but
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| 21 | consumers. As Ted Gephart has written about,
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| 22 | standard-setting organizations and their participants
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| 23 | may or may not have interests that coincide with those
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| 24 | of consumers, but simply because they might be
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| 25 | indifferent to the anticompetitive consequences of the |
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| 1 | deceptive conduct, for example, because they will be
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| 2 | able to pass through price rises to consumers, does not
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| 3 | address what antitrust is concerned with, namely,
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| 4 | whether the conduct harms consumers.
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| 5 | Now, similarly, business torts and contract law
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| 6 | provide the wrong measures of causation and harm. A
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| 7 | standard-setting participant who is able to pass along
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| 8 | price increases may not have been harmed and should not
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| 9 | be able to recover for the nonetheless real harm that
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| 10 | consumers will have suffered.
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| 11 | Finally, business torts may have elements that
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| 12 | do not fit well with the proper issue from an antitrust
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| 13 | perspective, or conversely, may be missing elements
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| 14 | necessary to answer the antitrust claim. The intent
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| 15 | element in fraud, for example, may or may not be apt to
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| 16 | the proper antitrust question in a particular factual
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| 17 | setting.
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| 18 | Now, underlying this question, I think,
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| 19 | ultimately really is a different issue, which is the
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| 20 | hostility to private rights of action under Section 2,
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| 21 | particularly their treble damage provisions, and a
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| 22 | concern regarding unjustified suits. That issue,
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| 23 | however, in my view properly should be dealt with
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| 24 | directly and not by wrongly manipulating substantive
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| 25 | standards under Section 2. |
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| 1 | For the reasons that I have explained, I think
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| 2 | that, in fact, this is an area that should be a
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| 3 | priority, not a backwater for federal and state
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| 4 | antitrust agencies. The importance of the substantive
|
| 5 | area should not be obscured or the barriers to effective
|
| 6 | enforcement heightened by an effort to cut off private
|
| 7 | litigation whose flaws lie elsewhere, not in their
|
| 8 | substantive antitrust claims, but rather, in procedural
|
| 9 | rules that govern private Section 2 actions.
|
| 10 | Thank you very much.
|
| 11 | (Applause.)
|
| 12 | MR. DAGEN: Thank you, Susan.
|
| 13 | Our next speaker is Preston McAfee. He's the
|
| 14 | J. Stanley Johnson Professor of Business Economics and
|
| 15 | Management at the California Institute of Technology
|
| 16 | where he teaches business strategy, managerial
|
| 17 | economics, and principles of economics. Preston is the
|
| 18 | author of over 70 articles published in scholarly
|
| 19 | economics journals and co-author of the book Incentives
|
| 20 | in Government Procurement. He served as one of four
|
| 21 | economists who edit the American Economic Review for
|
| 22 | over nine years.
|
| 23 | Preston?
|
| 24 | DR. McAFEE: Thank you. Thank you, Susan, for
|
| 25 | actually providing the lead-in for what I would like to |
22
| 1 | talk about today, and let me also apologize for being
|
| 2 | still on California time and so only about 60 percent
|
| 3 | awake.
|
| 4 | So, I would like to talk about the right of
|
| 5 | private action under the antitrust laws and connect that
|
| 6 | to deception and fraud as follows. Whatever is decided
|
| 7 | about deceptive practices and the right to sue under the
|
| 8 | antitrust laws will be abused in private suits if those
|
| 9 | are permitted, and let me warm up with VeriSign. So,
|
| 10 | VeriSign is the registrar of .com and .net, and in 2003,
|
| 11 | they began redirecting mistyped addresses to their own
|
| 12 | advertising site. The ISPs objected and asked the ruler
|
| 13 | of the internet to stop the practice, and VeriSign
|
| 14 | contended that that was an illegal conspiracy. The
|
| 15 | judge threw this out, which I think was the right
|
| 16 | answer.
|
| 17 | One thing that is a really interesting question
|
| 18 | about this particular antitrust suit is actually, what
|
| 19 | is somewhat of a principle, I guess, is it is often hard
|
| 20 | to fit modern industries into traditional economic
|
| 21 | analysis of antitrust, and this is a really nice poster
|
| 22 | child for that, because what is the quantity here? Is
|
| 23 | it the number of mistyped addresses? Well, that is
|
| 24 | something that is not affected by anyone's behavior,
|
| 25 | because that is just purely, you know, when consumers |
23
| 1 | make a mistake will determine that.
|
| 2 | On the other hand, you might think it is the
|
| 3 | number of advertisements, or in this case, is it the
|
| 4 | number of Viagra ads that are produced? Well, here is a
|
| 5 | situation where, in fact, we would like to reduce the
|
| 6 | quantity. That is, it would be welfare-enhancing to
|
| 7 | actually reduce the quantity that is produced by the
|
| 8 | industry. It does not quite stop there.
|
| 9 | So, another company that buys expired domains
|
| 10 | and then redirects them to its own advertising site sued
|
| 11 | VeriSign, that is, the plaintiff in the previous
|
| 12 | antitrust suit, saying that the existence of VeriSign's
|
| 13 | site finder itself violated the antitrust laws, and that
|
| 14 | suit, last time I looked, which was a week ago, seems to
|
| 15 | still be continuing. So, one thing is is that these
|
| 16 | suits concern the same behavior, that is,
|
| 17 | sitefinder.com, one saying that it was required and the
|
| 18 | other saying that it is prohibited by the antitrust
|
| 19 | laws, and so it makes for an interesting challenge.
|
| 20 | So, here are the things I would like to talk
|
| 21 | about. I have already talked about one example, and I
|
| 22 | am going to mention a couple more. I want to then talk
|
| 23 | about some research on for what purposes are private
|
| 24 | antitrust claims brought, who has an incentive to sue,
|
| 25 | and report on some research on that, and then conclude. |
24
| 1 | The Colorado Chiropractic Council sent hospitals
|
| 2 | requests for privileges and included in their request
|
| 3 | the threat of a lawsuit if denied. Nine of the
|
| 4 | hospitals did not admit the Colorado Chiropractic
|
| 5 | Council, and these hospitals were all, in fact, sued for
|
| 6 | restraint of trade. The suit was thrown out, but the
|
| 7 | message I want to bring to this is 21 hospitals admitted
|
| 8 | them, and while it is not demonstrated, it appears that
|
| 9 | the threat of an antitrust suit was, in fact, an
|
| 10 | effective threat.
|
| 11 | Antitrust actions outnumber or private suits
|
| 12 | outnumber government suits nine to one. Some of the
|
| 13 | reasons that they are given, I spoke with an attorney
|
| 14 | who says he tried to convert every contract suit into an
|
| 15 | antitrust suit as his first action, because it gives him
|
| 16 | access to treble damages, recovery of legal fees, and it
|
| 17 | is easier to survive summary judgment. So, private
|
| 18 | actions have grown. Canada, actually, did not permit
|
| 19 | private litigation until 1976, and they are still rare,
|
| 20 | probably because they do not have treble damages.
|
| 21 | So, the general idea which I think Susan
|
| 22 | reflected for me is that the incentives for private
|
| 23 | antitrust litigation are not guided by consumer welfare.
|
| 24 | The firms bringing the suit, consumer welfare generally
|
| 25 | is not their goal or motivation. So, what I want to |
25
| 1 | look at is, what are the actual motives of firms engaged
|
| 2 | in private antitrust action and assess to what extent
|
| 3 | the law can be used strategically, and then hopefully
|
| 4 | that will give us some insight into crafting the laws to
|
| 5 | minimizing the damage that is actually brought.
|
| 6 | Some of the uses to which the antitrust laws are
|
| 7 | brought -- private suits are put are harassment, harm
|
| 8 | and extortion, and harassment and harm can actually be
|
| 9 | used to induce cooperation, and this is especially
|
| 10 | effective because it is often cheaper to sue than it is
|
| 11 | to defend, and if you want to ensure cooperation, what
|
| 12 | you want is a punishment that is easy to mete out but
|
| 13 | expensive for the punished, and if it is symmetric, this
|
| 14 | is actually the economic theory of cooperation or
|
| 15 | collusion, actually, the same theory, suggests that that
|
| 16 | is the kind of punishment you would like to use. In
|
| 17 | addition, extortion reduces the returns to investment.
|
| 18 | That is clearly chilling -- chilling effect on
|
| 19 | investment.
|
| 20 | Surveying a large number of private antitrust
|
| 21 | suits, we have come up with seven different reasons for
|
| 22 | private litigation, and I have color-coded them to what
|
| 23 | extent they are opposed to the interests of consumers.
|
| 24 | So, two quite common reasons are extorting funds from a
|
| 25 | successful rival, and I want to especially point to |
26
| 1 | follow-on suits. So, when the Government brings a suit,
|
| 2 | generally there is an entire group of people who follow
|
| 3 | on. Microsoft, of course, has been subject to many of
|
| 4 | those follow-on suits.
|
| 5 | In addition, changing the terms of a contract,
|
| 6 | antitrust suits can be effective means of doing that on
|
| 7 | occasion, and as I said, some contract attorneys prefer
|
| 8 | antitrust suits because they think that it makes the
|
| 9 | defendant more likely to settle. Something that is
|
| 10 | speculative on our part is that it can be used to punish
|
| 11 | noncooperative behavior. Of course, no one is going to
|
| 12 | admit to this, because by and large you have then
|
| 13 | admitted to violating the antitrust laws directly, but
|
| 14 | from a theoretical perspective, that would be a reason
|
| 15 | for private antitrust litigation.
|
| 16 | Responding to an existing lawsuit and preventing
|
| 17 | a hostile takeover are common reasons. These do not
|
| 18 | actually have any direct negative effect on competition.
|
| 19 | They depend on whether the existing lawsuit was itself
|
| 20 | pro or -- procompetitive or not or the existing hostile
|
| 21 | takeover, and I would point to those as being in some
|
| 22 | sense neutral. Where the antitrust -- where private
|
| 23 | suits turn the antitrust laws on their head is when they
|
| 24 | discourage the entry of a rival, such as in the Utah Pie
|
| 25 | case, or that they prevent a successful firm from |
27
| 1 | competing vigorously.
|
| 2 | Now, this, of course, is one of Microsoft's
|
| 3 | defenses. I am not going to comment on that directly,
|
| 4 | but independent service organizations often bring these
|
| 5 | suits to prevent manufacturers from offering service and
|
| 6 | competing successfully. So, in that sense, they can
|
| 7 | quite turn the antitrust laws on their head.
|
| 8 | Now, let me turn to some theoretical research.
|
| 9 | This is not based on the survey of antitrust suits. The
|
| 10 | question is, who has the incentive to actually bring a
|
| 11 | private antitrust suit that is, in fact,
|
| 12 | anticompetitive? And to assess that, we look at a
|
| 13 | procompetitive action. So, this is a cost-reducing
|
| 14 | action that will give a firm an advantage in the
|
| 15 | marketplace versus an anticompetitive action, so this is
|
| 16 | raising your rivals' costs without lowering anyone's
|
| 17 | costs, and ask, holding constant the likelihood of
|
| 18 | prevailing, who would benefit more from bringing the
|
| 19 | suits?
|
| 20 | And we actually, in the context of the sort of
|
| 21 | standard work horse model, the Cornell model, the
|
| 22 | standard economic model that is used most frequently in
|
| 23 | antitrust evaluation, we find something I think quite
|
| 24 | surprising, which is that it is the small firm in a
|
| 25 | dispersed market who actually relatively benefits from |
28
| 1 | bringing an antitrust suit that is anticompetitive
|
| 2 | relative to a procompetitive suit, and the reason for
|
| 3 | this is the loss from a procompetitive rival's action
|
| 4 | actually gets larger as the number of firms grows,
|
| 5 | whereas the loss from an anticompetitive action
|
| 6 | decreases as the number of firms grows, so that in the
|
| 7 | limit, it is the small firm and not the large firm who
|
| 8 | tends to bring the action.
|
| 9 | So, to conclude, antitrust laws are often used
|
| 10 | not to encourage competition -- at least private
|
| 11 | antitrust suits -- but to reduce the level of
|
| 12 | competition. Clearly an outright ban on private
|
| 13 | antitrust litigation would solve that problem, but it
|
| 14 | may create other problems that are worse. Some
|
| 15 | alternatives may actually improve the situation as it
|
| 16 | stands today.
|
| 17 | One would be a gate-keeper, using government
|
| 18 | agencies as a gate-keeper for private litigation, but I
|
| 19 | am actually leery of that as a solution mainly because I
|
| 20 | judge the EEOC to be a failure as a gate-keeper in
|
| 21 | employment, and the gate-keeper model has not worked
|
| 22 | very well.
|
| 23 | One could also ask the agencies to weigh in on
|
| 24 | private litigation, and that may have more of an effect.
|
| 25 | Another proposal is to allow for additional support |
29
| 1 | beyond what is already created, in particular financial
|
| 2 | support for agency litigation. That, of course, risks
|
| 3 | capture and so would be a risky strategy for different
|
| 4 | reasons. Something that -- modeling in Canada, you have
|
| 5 | a -- there is a -- is decoupling the damages from the
|
| 6 | awards. It may be that you want to have high damages as
|
| 7 | a way of deterring behavior but low awards to reduce the
|
| 8 | number of lawsuits, and there are plenty of worthy
|
| 9 | agencies who would love to have the difference between
|
| 10 | the damages and awards.
|
| 11 | And then finally, something that from my own
|
| 12 | experience in litigation I would find useful is to
|
| 13 | provide experts to the court to reduce the uncertainty
|
| 14 | associated with antitrust suits.
|
| 15 | Let me conclude with three remarks on deceptive
|
| 16 | practices. One is is that not every misleading
|
| 17 | statement is intentional. There are many
|
| 18 | well-intentioned corporations that make mistakes, and
|
| 19 | the law should not have zero tolerance. So, this is in
|
| 20 | some sense a counter to remarks of Susan's, that there
|
| 21 | is no downside. There are statements that are made.
|
| 22 | Generally, if you run a corporation, it is hard to
|
| 23 | ensure zero probability of a misleading statement ever
|
| 24 | being made. People have -- make errors on occasion.
|
| 25 | One of the things I would say about Oliver |
30
| 1 | Williamson is that reading Oliver Williamson is very
|
| 2 | much like reading the Bible. When you read it
|
| 3 | selectively, he provides support for every point of
|
| 4 | view.
|
| 5 | The second point that I would like to make is
|
| 6 | that traditional economic analysis where a market -- and
|
| 7 | by that I mean the analysis of antitrust -- where
|
| 8 | markets are either monopolies or competitive, is the
|
| 9 | sort of general situation, that kind of model is very
|
| 10 | poorly suited to evaluating deceptive practices, and
|
| 11 | there are lots of -- the problem is, often it is the
|
| 12 | case that you can have a large effect on a small number
|
| 13 | of people or a small effect on a large number of people,
|
| 14 | and then what seems like an inconsequential difference,
|
| 15 | so a small compatibility problem which is easily
|
| 16 | remedied may still be fatal if it is something that
|
| 17 | consumers will not remedy. These are situations where
|
| 18 | it is not either a monopoly or a competitive
|
| 19 | marketplace, and as a result, we in some sense need to
|
| 20 | bring new economic models to the evaluation of deceptive
|
| 21 | practices.
|
| 22 | And then finally, I also want to say, in my
|
| 23 | view, the patent system is broken. The system itself is
|
| 24 | anticompetitive. It creates entry barriers. Many firms
|
| 25 | cannot enter because -- so, firms with a good idea, who |
31
| 1 | have invented a new technology and go and get it
|
| 2 | patented, find that because there are many patents that
|
| 3 | have some similarities, they are blocked from entry by
|
| 4 | existing patent pools. Patent pools, in addition, have
|
| 5 | the effect of encouraging collusive conduct.
|
| 6 | With a broken patent system -- and this, I
|
| 7 | think, echos a point that Susan made -- I do not think
|
| 8 | it is appropriate to try to fix the patent system using
|
| 9 | the antitrust laws. Instead, it would be desirable to
|
| 10 | fix the patent system directly. So, let's craft
|
| 11 | antitrust laws that promote competition and a patent
|
| 12 | policy that justly rewards the efforts to innovation.
|
| 13 | Thank you.
|
| 14 | (Applause.)
|
| 15 | MR. DAGEN: Our next speaker is Michael
|
| 16 | Brockmeyer. He's a partner at Frommer Lawrence & Haug,
|
| 17 | where his practice concentrates on antitrust and
|
| 18 | consumer protection law with particular emphasis on
|
| 19 | intellectual property financing agreements and the
|
| 20 | pharmaceutical industry. Before entering private
|
| 21 | practice, Michael served as chair of the Multistate
|
| 22 | Antitrust Task Force of the National Association of
|
| 23 | Attorneys General and was a chief of Maryland's
|
| 24 | Antitrust Division. He is a frequent author and
|
| 25 | lecturer on antitrust matters, and he is also an Adjunct |
32
| 1 | Professor at the University of Maryland School of Law,
|
| 2 | teaching antitrust law.
|
| 3 | DR. BROCKMEYER: Thanks, Rick. Good morning,
|
| 4 | everyone.
|
| 5 | For my opening remarks this morning, I want to
|
| 6 | focus on abusive governmental processes, in particular
|
| 7 | with respect to deception in the intellectual property
|
| 8 | setting, and then I am going to briefly touch on
|
| 9 | tortious conduct.
|
| 10 | I find it helpful, however, that before going
|
| 11 | into those subjects, we should remind ourselves of
|
| 12 | certain basic principles that should apply when we look
|
| 13 | at any one of the subjects that we are talking about,
|
| 14 | and so, for example, and what we take for granted today
|
| 15 | I would assume, everyone, that aggressive competition on
|
| 16 | the merits serves consumer welfare. Even if done by a
|
| 17 | monopolist, competition on the merits is not
|
| 18 | exclusionary. If we do not permit that, then we deprive
|
| 19 | consumers the benefit of that competition.
|
| 20 | Now, that is a principle that has become well
|
| 21 | accepted in antitrust law, but we must remember that
|
| 22 | that principle is not one that necessarily underlies
|
| 23 | certain state laws that deal with deception or tortious
|
| 24 | conduct.
|
| 25 | The antitrust laws should not provide a remedy |
33
| 1 | for conduct that violates the common law or another
|
| 2 | statutory scheme and injures individual competitors
|
| 3 | unless the conduct substantially harms the competitive
|
| 4 | process. In my view, such conduct that violates the
|
| 5 | common law or another statutory scheme is not
|
| 6 | competition on the merits, but the question is, is
|
| 7 | whether often the conduct is sufficient enough to say
|
| 8 | that it harms the competitive process.
|
| 9 | In my view, the principle should be that that
|
| 10 | conduct substantially harms the competitive process when
|
| 11 | it allows, permits, durable pricing above competitive
|
| 12 | levels or there exists a dangerous probability that such
|
| 13 | supra-competitive pricing will occur. In my view, when
|
| 14 | you have this sort of conduct, the competitors, the
|
| 15 | injured competitor, cannot be passive. The competitor
|
| 16 | must have attempted to counteract, must have done so in
|
| 17 | a reasonable manner evaluated in the context of what
|
| 18 | would be a competitive market, and again, the harm
|
| 19 | should be measured in the context of ability to price
|
| 20 | above competitive levels.
|
| 21 | When deciding whether that conduct is
|
| 22 | exclusionary, that is, giving rise to a Section 2 claim,
|
| 23 | I believe that it is essential that deciding whether
|
| 24 | there is substantial harm to the competitive process
|
| 25 | must be undertaken first before any balancing against |
34
| 1 | any procompetitive justification, much as what Susan
|
| 2 | said, it is very difficult for much of this conduct to
|
| 3 | have a "procompetitive justification."
|
| 4 | The concern from a principles standpoint is if
|
| 5 | you quickly, say under a Microsoft type analysis,
|
| 6 | shifted the burden for procompetitive justification and
|
| 7 | there was none, you may end up penalizing under the
|
| 8 | antitrust laws tortious conduct that does not
|
| 9 | substantially harm the competitive process.
|
| 10 | Finally, when a monopolist's exclusionary
|
| 11 | conduct is subject to another regulatory scheme designed
|
| 12 | to promote competition, the antitrust laws should
|
| 13 | provide a remedy for such conduct only after taking into
|
| 14 | account the structure of the market and the significance
|
| 15 | of the regulatory scheme to the workings of the market.
|
| 16 | This is going to be particularly important when we are
|
| 17 | talking about Hatch-Waxman, as Preston was talking about
|
| 18 | in the patent arena, or even one explanation for
|
| 19 | Conwood, because we must remember that because there are
|
| 20 | virtual bans on advertising, the conduct there was such
|
| 21 | that it was difficult for Conwood to counteract the
|
| 22 | activity because it could not do so by traditional
|
| 23 | advertising in the regulatory scheme that we have with
|
| 24 | respect to tobacco advertising prohibited that.
|
| 25 | With that, let me now first go to abuse of the |
35
| 1 | government processes through deception, and the first,
|
| 2 | of course, is Walker Process, and in the 41 or so years
|
| 3 | since Walker Process was decided, much has been said
|
| 4 | about Walker Process, and the issue with, of course,
|
| 5 | Walker Process is that we start with the principle that
|
| 6 | the patentee is immune from antitrust liability
|
| 7 | generally when the patentee seeks to enforce its patent,
|
| 8 | and so the question in Walker Process was, when would we
|
| 9 | remove that immunity, and the Court said, well, when
|
| 10 | there was fraud on the Patent Office, and if there was
|
| 11 | fraud on the Patent Office, there was not then a per se
|
| 12 | violation of the antitrust laws.
|
| 13 | Indeed, when I read the opinion again, I believe
|
| 14 | the Antitrust Division or -- I do not know whether the
|
| 15 | Federal Trade Commission joined -- actually had urged
|
| 16 | the per se rule, which the Court rejected there; that
|
| 17 | is, that once fraud on the Patent Office is shown, the
|
| 18 | plaintiff merely is now in the door and has to show
|
| 19 | other -- an otherwise violation of the antitrust laws.
|
| 20 | I believe the importance of Walker Process,
|
| 21 | however, is Justice Harlan's concurrence, and in
|
| 22 | particular, he wanted to make clear that this was not
|
| 23 | going to open the door or should not open the door for
|
| 24 | all sorts of plaintiffs' suits where a patent is found
|
| 25 | to be unenforceable or otherwise invalid, and thus, he |
36
| 1 | concluded that the private antitrust remedy, which the
|
| 2 | Court was allowing as a result of the Walker Process
|
| 3 | case, should not be deemed available to reach Section 2
|
| 4 | monopolies carried on under a nonfraudulently procured
|
| 5 | patent.
|
| 6 | Well, when we think about that sentence, I want
|
| 7 | to remind you on a little bit of history. Noerr had
|
| 8 | been decided prior to Walker Process, but California
|
| 9 | Transport had not. California Transport comes six or
|
| 10 | seven years after Walker Process, and so we end up in a
|
| 11 | situation where -- and let me just sort of finish with
|
| 12 | Walker Process for a moment -- that with Walker Process,
|
| 13 | the standard is if you do have fraud on the Patent
|
| 14 | Office, it is exclusionary conduct actionable under
|
| 15 | Section 2 on the assumption that the patentee otherwise
|
| 16 | possesses monopoly power or there is a dangerous
|
| 17 | probability that the patentee will obtain monopoly
|
| 18 | power.
|
| 19 | One area where I would disagree with the Federal
|
| 20 | Circuit, the Federal Circuit has said that in order to
|
| 21 | bring a Walker Process case, there must have been
|
| 22 | enforcement of the patent before the claim can be
|
| 23 | brought. In my view, Walker Process, if there has been
|
| 24 | fraud on the Patent Office, a Walker Process claim
|
| 25 | should be available even if the monopolist patentee has |
37
| 1 | not attempted to enforce its patent. Now, I understand
|
| 2 | that in virtually all circumstances, knowledge of the
|
| 3 | claim and ability to bring the claim will be in the
|
| 4 | context of either a counterclaim or where there has been
|
| 5 | a cease and desist or some other letter, a declaratory
|
| 6 | judgment action being brought, such that there has been
|
| 7 | either actual or attempted enforcement. The difficulty
|
| 8 | is that there are circumstances -- and this goes a
|
| 9 | little bit to Preston's point, I believe -- where
|
| 10 | someone will come and ask for a review of the current
|
| 11 | patent law or current state of intellectual property, an
|
| 12 | opinion by a law firm may be given to say, well, your
|
| 13 | particular process will infringe. There is not
|
| 14 | knowledge of the fraud on the Patent Office, and someone
|
| 15 | who would otherwise come to market may not come to
|
| 16 | market simply because that firm does not want to risk
|
| 17 | the disruption of an enforcement action by the patentee
|
| 18 | who has procured the patent by fraud. So, in my view,
|
| 19 | the standard should not be one where Walker Process is
|
| 20 | available only when there is enforcement.
|
| 21 | Back to where I was going with Justice Harlan,
|
| 22 | and the question becomes this, and something that I am
|
| 23 | seeing in my practice, is where there is an allegation
|
| 24 | that a patent is unenforceable by reason of inequitable
|
| 25 | conduct before the Patent Office. Now, where there is |
38
| 1 | inequitable conduct, there is intent, there is
|
| 2 | materiality, there is a weighing, but the basic issuance
|
| 3 | of the patent is not in issue; that is, in a Walker
|
| 4 | Process, where there is fraud, the patent is void ab
|
| 5 | initio, where that is not the case with respect to
|
| 6 | inequitable conduct. And here, in the Noble Pharma
|
| 7 | case, the Federal Circuit distinguished between in the
|
| 8 | case Walker Process fraud and inequitable conduct, and
|
| 9 | the key for that distinction is in a Walker Process
|
| 10 | fraud, there must be a fraud on the Patent Office, and
|
| 11 | but for the fraud, the patent would not issue.
|
| 12 | In my view -- and my time is getting short --
|
| 13 | the problem is that where there is inequitable conduct,
|
| 14 | there is often then a claim of sham litigation; that is,
|
| 15 | that the litigation is brought with the patentee knowing
|
| 16 | that its patent is unenforceable by reason of the
|
| 17 | inequitable conduct. In my view, the standard there
|
| 18 | should be one where the litigation must be sham, that
|
| 19 | is, meeting the PRE test, and the sham litigation itself
|
| 20 | must have substantially harmed the litigation; that is,
|
| 21 | the focus of the inquiry should be on the sham
|
| 22 | litigation and not the patentee's conduct before the
|
| 23 | Patent Office.
|
| 24 | Let me very quickly go to the issue of listings
|
| 25 | on the Orange Book. The Orange Book, as many of you may |
39
| 1 | know, created under the Hatch-Waxman Act, a brand will
|
| 2 | list those patents that cover the branded drugs which it
|
| 3 | is marketing, and as we also know that the FDA plays
|
| 4 | only a ministerial act, meaning it lists what is
|
| 5 | presented to it.
|
| 6 | One point that I want to make is that listing in
|
| 7 | the Orange Book does have procompetitive attributes.
|
| 8 | While listing in the Orange Book means that when a
|
| 9 | generic sues, that there is a 30-month stay before the
|
| 10 | generic can -- its ANDA can be approved by the FDA, it
|
| 11 | also has a procompetitive attribute because it will
|
| 12 | encourage the generics to sue because of the 180
|
| 13 | exclusive for the first to file. So, we must be mindful
|
| 14 | that listings in the Orange Book do have procompetitive
|
| 15 | attributes, and where the FTC has sued in BristolMyers
|
| 16 | and Biovale, in both of those circumstances, the
|
| 17 | allegation was, in the case of BMS, it knew or could not
|
| 18 | have reasonably believed that the listing was
|
| 19 | appropriate or that Biovale was aware that the patent it
|
| 20 | listed did not cover the drug that it marketed.
|
| 21 | In Organon, I will pass through this, there is a
|
| 22 | suit that said the court had no antitrust liability,
|
| 23 | because Arganon had a reasonable basis for submission on
|
| 24 | its patent in the Orange Book.
|
| 25 | In my view, the standard should be that |
40
| 1 | something may be actionable exclusionary conduct under
|
| 2 | Section 2 only when the decision to list the patent was
|
| 3 | objectively baseless; that is, the test on whether to
|
| 4 | list should be objective, and it should be looking to
|
| 5 | where the brand could have reasonably believed that the
|
| 6 | listed patent could be asserted against a generic that a
|
| 7 | manufacturer would want to bring to the market.
|
| 8 | Finally, on the tortious conduct, in my view, a
|
| 9 | monopolist's misleading and deceptive tortious conduct
|
| 10 | that's illegal in common law or another regulatory
|
| 11 | scheme could be treated, may be treated, as
|
| 12 | exclusionary, but only when the conduct is
|
| 13 | institutional, pervasive and substantially harms the
|
| 14 | competitive process.
|
| 15 | Institutional, to me, goes to the question that
|
| 16 | Preston raised of mistakes. This must be one where the
|
| 17 | company has purposefully looked to undertake a campaign
|
| 18 | that involves misleading and deceptive conduct. It must
|
| 19 | be pervasive, that is, you measure it in the context of
|
| 20 | the relevant geographic market. We have to, you know,
|
| 21 | deal with the rogue employee who may be engaged in some
|
| 22 | tortious conduct in some area, but we should not visit
|
| 23 | antitrust liability.
|
| 24 | It must impair the competitive process, and
|
| 25 | finally, as has been suggested, in my view, there should |
41
| 1 | be no rebuttable de minimus presumption -- I know there
|
| 2 | has been the suggestion in several -- I believe the
|
| 3 | Sixth and the Ninth Circuits have adopted the notion of
|
| 4 | a de minimus rebuttable presumption. I believe there
|
| 5 | should not be one. The plaintiff in my view has the
|
| 6 | initial burden, the initial burden being to present a
|
| 7 | prima facie case of substantial harm to competition.
|
| 8 | Thank you.
|
| 9 | (Applause.)
|
| 10 | MR. DAGEN: Our next speaker is Richard Rozek.
|
| 11 | He is a senior vice president at NERA Economic
|
| 12 | Consulting. After starting his career as an Assistant
|
| 13 | Professor at the University of Pittsburgh, Richard
|
| 14 | worked for over six years in the Bureau of Economics at
|
| 15 | the Federal Trade Commission in a series of senior staff
|
| 16 | positions, including Deputy Assistant Director for
|
| 17 | Antitrust. Since joining NERA in 1987, Dr. Rozek has
|
| 18 | worked on projects affecting many different industries,
|
| 19 | including the pharmaceutical industry. His work has
|
| 20 | appeared in a number of journals.
|
| 21 | Richard?
|
| 22 | DR. ROZEK: Well, I want to thank Pat
|
| 23 | Schultheiss for inviting me to come here and talk today
|
| 24 | about the pharmaceutical industry. It is an industry
|
| 25 | that I spend a fair amount of my time studying, and the |
42
| 1 | work I do at NERA is focused on the pharmaceutical
|
| 2 | industry as well as other industries, but I want to
|
| 3 | begin by summarizing some of the interesting
|
| 4 | characteristics or structural characteristics of the
|
| 5 | industry that make it so interesting to study. Not only
|
| 6 | that, we live in a world with laws regarding patents,
|
| 7 | copyrights, trademarks and trade secrets that along with
|
| 8 | the effective enforcement mechanisms have contributed
|
| 9 | substantially to economic growth and development in the
|
| 10 | United States. Nowhere is this effect of the
|
| 11 | intellectual property laws more pronounced than in the
|
| 12 | health care industry, specifically for pharmaceuticals.
|
| 13 | Innovators in the pharmaceutical industry invest
|
| 14 | hundreds of millions of dollars in research and
|
| 15 | development or R&D for new medicines that address unmet
|
| 16 | medical needs. Conducting R&D and obtaining approval
|
| 17 | from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration or FDA to
|
| 18 | sell a new medicine as a safe, effective treatment for a
|
| 19 | particular disease usually requires 10 to 15 years of
|
| 20 | research. Many research projects actually fail and do
|
| 21 | not even result in the innovators submitting a new drug
|
| 22 | application to the FDA.
|
| 23 | For the few successful projects, the innovator
|
| 24 | has, at the end of that 15-year period, a patent that
|
| 25 | gives it exclusivity, not to be confused with monopoly |
43
| 1 | power, for components of the product. The patent may be
|
| 2 | a composition of matter, may be a process, may be a
|
| 3 | method of use. Also, the innovator has a new drug
|
| 4 | application approved by the FDA as a result of that R&D
|
| 5 | investment, but there is no guarantee that the product
|
| 6 | will be commercially successful.
|
| 7 | The innovator must manufacture and distribute
|
| 8 | the product. The innovator must inform patients,
|
| 9 | physicians, pharmacists, and payers about the
|
| 10 | therapeutic benefits of the improved product. He must
|
| 11 | negotiate prices with specific payers, both public and
|
| 12 | private. And in the end, many pharmaceutical products
|
| 13 | may not even generate sufficient revenues to justify
|
| 14 | their investment. Those products that are successful
|
| 15 | provide resources in terms of retained earnings for the
|
| 16 | innovator to fund its ongoing R&D efforts. So that if
|
| 17 | we want to have cures for such medical problems as AIDS,
|
| 18 | Alzheimer's disease, and cancer in our lifetime, we must
|
| 19 | have public policy that provides the incentives for
|
| 20 | innovators to invest resources in pharmaceutical R&D and
|
| 21 | continue the work to solve these unmet medical problems.
|
| 22 | Now, there have been some concerns raised about
|
| 23 | practices that innovators engage in near the end of the
|
| 24 | patent lives for their products, such issues as filing a
|
| 25 | Citizen's Petition with the FDA, introducing new, |
44
| 1 | improved versions of their products based on the
|
| 2 | original chemicals, settling patent infringement cases,
|
| 3 | introducing generic versions of their original branded
|
| 4 | products, sometimes referred to as introducing an
|
| 5 | authorized generic. These practices and others that we
|
| 6 | have heard about today with regard to Orange Book
|
| 7 | listings and so on, have been the focus of antitrust
|
| 8 | scrutiny that the pharmaceutical industry has been
|
| 9 | receiving.
|
| 10 | This policy debate on whether or not these
|
| 11 | practices are legitimate or the incentives to engage in
|
| 12 | these practices somehow be altered are guided more by
|
| 13 | emotion, rather than analyses that demonstrate that
|
| 14 | there is actual harm to consumer welfare from these
|
| 15 | practices. As a matter of fact, there are many
|
| 16 | beneficial effects from these practices that often are
|
| 17 | not the focus of the debate.
|
| 18 | For example, filing a Citizen's Petition with
|
| 19 | the FDA makes the FDA aware of scientific or public
|
| 20 | health questions regarding its efforts to approve
|
| 21 | additional products. Introducing a combination product
|
| 22 | that combines two active ingredients or an extended
|
| 23 | release product can actually provide benefits to
|
| 24 | patients, increase compliance one pill instead of two.
|
| 25 | Actually, for insured patients, it can result in lower |
45
| 1 | co-payments. You have to buy a single pill, pay one
|
| 2 | co-payment, instead of take two pills and make two
|
| 3 | co-payments, so there can be a cost-reducing benefit.
|
| 4 | Settling a patent case can reduce litigation
|
| 5 | costs and can actually, in some cases, provide
|
| 6 | additional entry into a marketplace. Introducing an
|
| 7 | authorized generic product into the marketplace can
|
| 8 | obviously increase competition. So, you see that there
|
| 9 | are benefits to the practices that have been the subject
|
| 10 | of these challenges, and there appears, on the other
|
| 11 | hand, to be a lack of evidence that these actions harm
|
| 12 | consumers.
|
| 13 | Instead of talking about these types of
|
| 14 | actions collectively, I'll talk about the authorized
|
| 15 | generic issue, which has been the subject of some
|
| 16 | debate. There has actually been legislation proposed
|
| 17 | addressing authorized generics. There have been some
|
| 18 | court decisions related to authorized generics and so
|
| 19 | on. Most recently, to spur the debate, the Supreme
|
| 20 | Court refused to hear the FTC appeal of the
|
| 21 | Schering-Plough case. The Court of Appeals for the
|
| 22 | Second Circuit denied a consumer group's request for a
|
| 23 | rehearing in the Tamoxifen matter that involved Astra
|
| 24 | Zeneca and Barr settling a patent case. Bruce Downey,
|
| 25 | the Chairman and CEO of Barr, said in response to the |
46
| 1 | Court of Appeals' decision, "We are pleased that our
|
| 2 | patent challenge settlement related to Tamoxifen citrate
|
| 3 | has been upheld as being pro-consumer and
|
| 4 | pro-competition."
|
| 5 | In spite of these court decisions and in spite
|
| 6 | of the benefits to competition from introduction of an
|
| 7 | authorized generic, the argument has been that
|
| 8 | introducing an authorized generic is inconsistent with
|
| 9 | the intent of the Drug Price Competition and Patent
|
| 10 | Restoration Act of 1984, sometimes referred to as the
|
| 11 | Hatch-Waxman Act. Specifically, the threat to launch an
|
| 12 | authorized generic reduces the incentives provided to
|
| 13 | generic companies to challenge patents listed in the
|
| 14 | Orange Book and, thus, will reduce the number of future
|
| 15 | generic alternatives.
|
| 16 | Now, the problem is that there is no evidence
|
| 17 | that the number of generic alternatives will be reduced
|
| 18 | or that there are a lack of profit opportunities or
|
| 19 | entry opportunities for generic firms. The Hatch-Waxman
|
| 20 | Act actually encourages both innovation to solve those
|
| 21 | unmet medical problems and competition or imitation by
|
| 22 | sellers after patent expiration. It has generally been
|
| 23 | a success because it has struck this balance between
|
| 24 | innovation and imitation, and restricting options
|
| 25 | available under the Hatch-Waxman Act to encourage |
47
| 1 | innovation, to destroy the incentives to develop new and
|
| 2 | improved medicines, will actually harm patients,
|
| 3 | physicians, pharmacists, and payers.
|
| 4 | Now, some of the entry opportunities that
|
| 5 | exist -- and this should be of interest to the antitrust
|
| 6 | community as well, because it is an issue that is a key
|
| 7 | part of any antitrust inquiry -- is what are the entry
|
| 8 | conditions into a marketplace? Is entry encouraged or
|
| 9 | discouraged by certain actions? Well, the presence of
|
| 10 | authorized generics, for example, actually creates new
|
| 11 | entrants into the pharmaceutical marketplace. Obviously
|
| 12 | innovator companies now have an opportunity to introduce
|
| 13 | an authorized generic and enter that component of the
|
| 14 | industry, as companies such as Pfizer, Novartis and
|
| 15 | Schering-Plough have done. Pfizer has its generic
|
| 16 | entity, Greenstone, Novartis has its generic affiliate,
|
| 17 | Sandoz, and Schering-Plough has Warrick. These are
|
| 18 | firms that now sell generic products. So, innovator
|
| 19 | companies are entering the generic marketplace.
|
| 20 | Companies that have traditionally been in the
|
| 21 | generic marketplace and have launched their own generic
|
| 22 | products or independent generics have also been involved
|
| 23 | in participating in the authorized generic portion of
|
| 24 | the industry. Mylan, Barr, Par, Watson, Ivax/Teva,
|
| 25 | which is now a single firm, have all sold authorized |
48
| 1 | generic forms of drugs under licenses from the innovator
|
| 2 | varieties. Barr, a company that actually derives most
|
| 3 | of its revenues from sales of generic drugs, has a few
|
| 4 | branded products as well, and it recently launched an
|
| 5 | authorized generic version of its brand oral
|
| 6 | contraceptive product Seasonale after Watson, a generic
|
| 7 | company, launched a generic version of the product.
|
| 8 | Bruce Downey, again, said, quote, "It is our obligation
|
| 9 | to preserve our rightful interest in this product." So,
|
| 10 | you see, even the generic companies see the benefit of
|
| 11 | launching authorized generics when they do expand into
|
| 12 | the brand or innovator segment of the industry.
|
| 13 | Some firms have arisen to sell authorized
|
| 14 | generics only. For example, Prasco is a firm that
|
| 15 | currently sells authorized generic versions of seven
|
| 16 | branded products. It is a privately held company. It
|
| 17 | was created because of the opportunities presented to
|
| 18 | the marketplace by this ability to sell authorized
|
| 19 | generic products.
|
| 20 | I have seen various estimates of the value of
|
| 21 | the patented products coming off patent in the next two
|
| 22 | or three years, and it could easily exceed $27 billion
|
| 23 | in 2007 and $29 billion in 2008. So, the point is that
|
| 24 | there are profit opportunities in the generic industry
|
| 25 | with authorized generics in the marketplace as well. |
49
| 1 | So, the new entrants have emerged, and future profit
|
| 2 | opportunities exist.
|
| 3 | The issue remains, however, what is the role for
|
| 4 | antitrust policy versus competitive forces in this
|
| 5 | industry? Where in the industry should antitrust policy
|
| 6 | be focused? Should it be focused at the manufacturer
|
| 7 | level? Should it be focused at the retail level?
|
| 8 | Should it be focused at the distribution level? There
|
| 9 | are fundamental questions with regard to using antitrust
|
| 10 | policy to address issues in the pharmaceutical industry.
|
| 11 | I think there have been several mistakes in the current
|
| 12 | application of the antitrust laws to the pharmaceutical
|
| 13 | industry, broadly defined as this vertical chain from
|
| 14 | research through distribution of the products to
|
| 15 | patients.
|
| 16 | One is that market definitions are often too
|
| 17 | narrow in this industry from an antitrust perspective.
|
| 18 | Market definitions that use a single chemical as the
|
| 19 | appropriate defining characteristic of a market,
|
| 20 | overlook the therapeutic competition that exists in the
|
| 21 | pharmaceutical industry, competition between chemical
|
| 22 | entities, Avandia competes with Actos, Fosamax competes
|
| 23 | with Actonel, ear tubes compete with antibiotics for
|
| 24 | treating otitis media. There is a lot of competition
|
| 25 | that's overlooked by taking the static view that it's |
50
| 1 | only a single chemical constitues a relevant market.
|
| 2 | Well, a fundamental flaw in current antitrust, taking a
|
| 3 | too narrow view of the market, not realizing the
|
| 4 | therapeutic competition, competition across therapies,
|
| 5 | be they pharmaceutical or surgical procedures.
|
| 6 | Taking that narrow view of market definition
|
| 7 | causes decisions to be made that monopolies exist when,
|
| 8 | in fact, they do not, you see.
|
| 9 | Another flaw is taking a static, as opposed to a
|
| 10 | dynamic, view of the market when you have a market
|
| 11 | environment characterized by high expenditures in R&D
|
| 12 | and new products emerging from research being done
|
| 13 | within U.S. laboratories, UK laboratories, Japanese
|
| 14 | laboratories, and even in other countries, such as India
|
| 15 | and Argentina and Brazil, countries that are developing
|
| 16 | and have recently improved their protection for
|
| 17 | intellectual property.
|
| 18 | Competitive forces are working in health care
|
| 19 | markets, and I think a greater reliance on allowing
|
| 20 | these competitive forces to work as opposed to
|
| 21 | intervening too early with antitrust enforcement is a
|
| 22 | better solution for everyone concerned. What we need to
|
| 23 | do is to convince consumers that shopping for
|
| 24 | pharmaceutical products, such as they do for other
|
| 25 | consumer goods, is a good idea. We have to induce more |
51
| 1 | of a shopping or a searching procedure for the lowest
|
| 2 | pharmaceutical prices.
|
| 3 | I recently conducted with one of my colleagues a
|
| 4 | survey of pharmacies in Crystal City, Virginia to
|
| 5 | purchase the product albuterol, which is an asthma
|
| 6 | treatment. We found that in a narrow geographic region
|
| 7 | within Crystal City, Virginia, the price of a canister
|
| 8 | of albuterol ranged from $8.19 to $26.49. We found out
|
| 9 | this information just by calling the pharmacy and asking
|
| 10 | them how much a canister of albuterol would cost. There
|
| 11 | is often a significant difference in price, which you
|
| 12 | can find out by just calling before you even go to the
|
| 13 | pharmacy with your prescription.
|
| 14 | WalMart recently announced a pilot program to
|
| 15 | sell generic pharmaceutical products for $4 a
|
| 16 | prescription. K-Mart is offering a 90-day supply of a
|
| 17 | prescription for $15. The market is responding to the
|
| 18 | need to control health care costs.
|
| 19 | So, in conclusion, I want to say that innovators
|
| 20 | in the pharmaceutical industry obtain patents and
|
| 21 | regulatory approval in the U.S. They are subject to the
|
| 22 | general U.S. antitrust laws, as are all companies, and
|
| 23 | additional specialized rules, such as the Hatch-Waxman
|
| 24 | Act, that strikes a balance between innovation and
|
| 25 | imitation. This structure creates the incentives for |
52
| 1 | both innovators and imitators to develop, manufacture
|
| 2 | and sell their products. To preserve the gains from
|
| 3 | both types of activities, public policy, including
|
| 4 | antitrust, should focus on maintaining a business
|
| 5 | environment that allows innovators and imitators the
|
| 6 | most effective means to manage their product life cycles
|
| 7 | under the existing system.
|
| 8 | In the case of innovators introducing authorized
|
| 9 | generics and the other activities I described earlier,
|
| 10 | competition has increased and new entrants have emerged.
|
| 11 | Patients have had access to established therapies and to
|
| 12 | new therapies, and they have the mechanism in place to
|
| 13 | assure that research will be done on therapies to meet
|
| 14 | unmet medical needs in the future.
|
| 15 | With regard to the pharmaceutical industry, a
|
| 16 | reliance on competitive forces rather than a stepped-up
|
| 17 | antitrust policy that has focused on static analysis
|
| 18 | under narrow market definitions holds greater promise
|
| 19 | for controlling health care costs in the future.
|
| 20 | Thank you.
|
| 21 | (Applause.)
|
| 22 | MR. DAGEN: Before we proceed to our last two
|
| 23 | speakers, we will take about a ten-minute break. When
|
| 24 | we come back, we will hear from Gil Ohana and George
|
| 25 | Cary and then go directly from their presentations into |
53
| 1 | our round table discussion. Thank you.
|
| 2 | (A brief recess was taken.)
|
| 3 | MR. DAGEN: Okay, welcome back, everybody. We
|
| 4 | have two speakers remaining, and after their
|
| 5 | presentations we will follow with the round table
|
| 6 | discussion.
|
| 7 | Gil Ohana is Director of Antitrust and
|
| 8 | Competition for Cisco Systems, a leading manufacturer of
|
| 9 | networking equipment for the internet. He writes and
|
| 10 | speaks regularly on licensing, standard-setting, patent
|
| 11 | pools and other subjects at the intersection of
|
| 12 | antitrust and intellectual property law. Before joining
|
| 13 | Cisco, Gil was a trial attorney at the Antitrust
|
| 14 | Division of the U.S. Department of Justice, specializing
|
| 15 | in antitrust issues in high technology industries.
|
| 16 | Gil?
|
| 17 | MR. OHANA: Thank you, Richard, and thanks to
|
| 18 | the Justice Department and the FTC for the opportunity
|
| 19 | to speak today.
|
| 20 | Susan Creighton earlier used the term "network
|
| 21 | industries." I am in the networking industry, and in
|
| 22 | the networking industry, something the customers care
|
| 23 | about a lot is that networking products work together
|
| 24 | well and the way that we make sure they work together
|
| 25 | well is largely by participation in standard-setting. |
54
| 1 | So, we're very proud of the leading role that we've
|
| 2 | played in developing standards that many of you use
|
| 3 | every day, whether or not you realize it. To give some
|
| 4 | examples, 802.3, which is the ethernet standard; 802.11,
|
| 5 | which is the WIFI standard; TCPIP, which is the basic
|
| 6 | transmission control protocol on which the internet
|
| 7 | runs.
|
| 8 | We also sell every year billions of dollars of
|
| 9 | products that implement a wide variety of industry
|
| 10 | standards, so both from the standpoint of participation
|
| 11 | in standards development, from the standpoint of
|
| 12 | implementation of standards in commercial products, we
|
| 13 | are passionately interested in a transparent standards
|
| 14 | development process. What do I mean by that? I mean a
|
| 15 | process that values intellectual property rights but
|
| 16 | that also recognizes, as the Justice Department did in
|
| 17 | the Vita letter, that the incorporation of a patent into
|
| 18 | a standard may confer on that patent significant market
|
| 19 | power and that, therefore, the decision to incorporate
|
| 20 | the patent into a standard should be made knowingly with
|
| 21 | access to the best information that is available at the
|
| 22 | time.
|
| 23 | The deceptive practices in standards
|
| 24 | development, therefore, run contrary to our interests.
|
| 25 | They reduce our incentives to participate in standards |
55
| 1 | development, and they reduce our confidence that the
|
| 2 | products we ship will not infringe or that if they do
|
| 3 | infringe that we will be able to address the
|
| 4 | infringement with a payment of reasonable licensing
|
| 5 | fees.
|
| 6 | I'd like to preface my remarks with a quote from
|
| 7 | Justice Brennan in the Allied Tube case that I am sure
|
| 8 | many of you have seen before. Historically, the
|
| 9 | antitrust scrutiny that Justice Brennan referred to was
|
| 10 | really around Section 1. More recently, the FTC in
|
| 11 | particular has brought a number of cases involving
|
| 12 | Section 2 issues in standards development, as we all
|
| 13 | know. What I'd like to talk about today is those cases
|
| 14 | without getting deeply into the facts of any of them and
|
| 15 | make a few points about them.
|
| 16 | First of all, to suggest that despite the title
|
| 17 | of today's discussion, when we talk about deception, we
|
| 18 | really ought to be talking about exploitation and not
|
| 19 | deception. Second, that if you situate deception in the
|
| 20 | broader panoply of Section 2, you come up with some
|
| 21 | interesting conclusions, and I think Susan touched on
|
| 22 | these earlier, regarding whether the risk of
|
| 23 | over-enforcement operates as strongly in the context of
|
| 24 | deception in standards development cases as it does in
|
| 25 | Section 2 cases more generally. And last, I'd like to |
56
| 1 | comment on, since I am here in an event hosted by the
|
| 2 | Justice Department and the FTC, I'll abuse a privilege
|
| 3 | of being here by talking about how I feel the agencies
|
| 4 | can best address issues of deceptions in standards
|
| 5 | development, and I'll give you a hint, it's not just
|
| 6 | about bringing cases.
|
| 7 | I won't spend long on this slide. Here are some
|
| 8 | examples all drawn from recent FTC decisions or
|
| 9 | investigations involving deception in standards
|
| 10 | development, and as the cases suggest, there are a fair
|
| 11 | number of fact patterns -- I didn't, for example, deal
|
| 12 | with government standard-setting here, the Orange Book
|
| 13 | cases, et cetera, but there are a fair number of fact
|
| 14 | patterns just in classic tech industry standards
|
| 15 | development.
|
| 16 | So, to unite the theory, I thought about a kind
|
| 17 | of way of defining the issue, which is that it is a
|
| 18 | patentee's exploitation of monopoly power that results
|
| 19 | from the success of a standard for which their patent is
|
| 20 | essential, where that power is created by actions that
|
| 21 | run contrary to the rules or shared expectations of the
|
| 22 | participants in standards development.
|
| 23 | I'd like to focus on two parts of that
|
| 24 | definition. The first is exploitation of monopoly
|
| 25 | power, and the second is resulting from the success of |
57
| 1 | the standard.
|
| 2 | First of all, on exploitation of monopoly power,
|
| 3 | it seems to me that the analytical weakness of just
|
| 4 | focusing on deception is that you are really missing
|
| 5 | what matters, which is not the deceptive act itself, but
|
| 6 | the exploitation of the market power that that creates.
|
| 7 | Let me offer an example, as they say, ripped from the
|
| 8 | headlines, though it is a situation that people in the
|
| 9 | networking industry are aware of, as I think are some
|
| 10 | people in this building.
|
| 11 | The hypothetical is, a patent holder discloses a
|
| 12 | patent in patent standards development, it offers to
|
| 13 | license the patent for fully paid up $1 royalty, give me
|
| 14 | a buck, use all you want. The patent holder then sells
|
| 15 | the patent to someone else. The buyer buys the patent
|
| 16 | without knowledge of the prior licensing commitment,
|
| 17 | let's assume. The buyer begins to assert the patent
|
| 18 | against companies implementing the standard, which by
|
| 19 | now has enjoyed a great deal of success, and you won't
|
| 20 | be surprised to learn that the successor is asking for
|
| 21 | more than a dollar. The rules of the standards
|
| 22 | development organization at the time did not
|
| 23 | specifically require that licensing commitments made in
|
| 24 | the context of the standards development effort, in
|
| 25 | fact, bound successors, but if you ask people who |
58
| 1 | participate in the standards development effort, that
|
| 2 | would certainly be their expectation.
|
| 3 | What was the deception here? Well, there really
|
| 4 | wasn't any. The successor was quite up front about what
|
| 5 | they were doing. The initial patent holder did not
|
| 6 | deceive anyone, the successor did not deceive anyone, so
|
| 7 | where is the deception? It seems to me that what you
|
| 8 | are really focusing on here is the exploitation, and the
|
| 9 | exploitation begins at the moment that the successor
|
| 10 | becomes aware of the past licensing commitment and the
|
| 11 | consensus within the standards development effort that,
|
| 12 | in fact, it would bind the successor as well. At that
|
| 13 | point, failure to withdraw the claim and seek only the
|
| 14 | one dollar royalty is I guess deceptive conduct, though
|
| 15 | it seems to me more to be exploitative conduct.
|
| 16 | Now, note in this case, the deception and the
|
| 17 | exploitation essentially merged into one in the matter
|
| 18 | of the standpoint of timing. In cases like Rambus and
|
| 19 | BroadCom, obviously there is a much longer time period
|
| 20 | between when deception occurs and when the exercise of
|
| 21 | monopoly power will occur, thereby exemplifying the
|
| 22 | point that the two may be different, they may be the
|
| 23 | same, but in any case, what you want to worry about is
|
| 24 | the second, not the first.
|
| 25 | Listening to some of the discussion this morning |
59
| 1 | made me think of another reason why you want to focus on
|
| 2 | exploitation rather than deception. It is the question
|
| 3 | of inadvertent deception. Deception may very well be
|
| 4 | inadvertent, and it is particularly true in the
|
| 5 | standard-setting context. Where the rules of standards
|
| 6 | development organizations are not clear, people can make
|
| 7 | innocent mistakes. Exploitation is never inadvertent.
|
| 8 | Let's move on to the second phrase I'd like to
|
| 9 | talk about, the phrase resulting from the success of the
|
| 10 | standard. Here we come to a significant difference
|
| 11 | between the FTC's series of standards cases and what
|
| 12 | I'll call kind of classic Justice Department monopoly
|
| 13 | maintenance cases, AT&T, IBM, Microsoft, all of which
|
| 14 | involve durable monopoly power and raise the question
|
| 15 | and the understandable concern that what you should
|
| 16 | really be worried about is the risk of false positives,
|
| 17 | because in those cases, you are dealing with a
|
| 18 | successful company, and you have got to tease out, a
|
| 19 | pretty difficult analytical task, tease out specific
|
| 20 | exclusionary conduct from what made that company
|
| 21 | successful as a general matter. That's not easy to do,
|
| 22 | a risk that I am sure many of you have seen the Learned
|
| 23 | Hand quote that captured this.
|
| 24 | Now, the question I would like to pose is under
|
| 25 | what circumstances can you be sure that the deceiver in |
60
| 1 | a standards deception case is or is not what Learned
|
| 2 | Hand would call the successful competitor? It seems to
|
| 3 | me that in deception cases, the conduct and market power
|
| 4 | elements of monopolization may focus on different
|
| 5 | subjects. In other words, you may be worried about or
|
| 6 | you may be focusing on different actors. Certainly you
|
| 7 | would be focusing on whether the act of deception was
|
| 8 | anticompetitive and then whether it lacked business
|
| 9 | justification, but you would also be focusing not on
|
| 10 | whether the deceiver gained monopoly power through its
|
| 11 | actions, but whether the standard gained monopoly power,
|
| 12 | and the standard may have gained monopoly power for
|
| 13 | reasons that have very little to do with the underlying
|
| 14 | deception.
|
| 15 | In that sense, the risk of over-enforcement is
|
| 16 | lowest when, first of all, the undisclosed intellectual
|
| 17 | property right was not core to the success of the
|
| 18 | standard. It was, in other words, nice to have. Now,
|
| 19 | this isn't an argument for counting patents. The fact
|
| 20 | that the undisclosed patent was one patent out of fifty
|
| 21 | or a hundred or a thousand should not be dispositive,
|
| 22 | because all patents are not created equal, but the other
|
| 23 | thing you should think about is, what were the rejected
|
| 24 | substitutes? First of all, did they exist? Second,
|
| 25 | were they close? And third, can you say with some |
61
| 1 | degree of assurance that they would have been selected
|
| 2 | absent the deception?
|
| 3 | Now, that may not be the easy inquiry, but it is
|
| 4 | a whole lot easier than figuring out whether per
|
| 5 | processor licensing was the source of Microsoft's
|
| 6 | vertical monopoly in operating systems in 1984. It is a
|
| 7 | whole lot easier than figuring out whether lease
|
| 8 | practices were the reason that IBM enjoyed a leading
|
| 9 | position in mainframes for quite so long.
|
| 10 | First of all, the time period is very
|
| 11 | compressed. In the facts of the Rambus case, the period
|
| 12 | in which Rambus gained monopoly power through the
|
| 13 | insertion of its patents in JEDEC and competitive
|
| 14 | alternatives were distorted was a matter of months. You
|
| 15 | knew what the alternatives were. You typically, because
|
| 16 | standards development activities are ostensibly
|
| 17 | documented, have a good set of evidence to look to to
|
| 18 | figure out what the alternatives were, why they were
|
| 19 | rejected. It seems like an easier exercise, and because
|
| 20 | it is an easier exercise, the risk that you are going to
|
| 21 | get it wrong it seems to me goes down.
|
| 22 | Let's talk about moving on to the culture of
|
| 23 | standards development. First of all, standards
|
| 24 | development is not a lawyer-intensive process, which
|
| 25 | goes back to the point I made earlier about the risk of |
62
| 1 | inadvertent nondisclosure or the risk of inadvertent
|
| 2 | deception. In thinking about that, I go back to the
|
| 3 | Rambus case and the FTC's description of standards
|
| 4 | development as a cooperative effort in which the risk of
|
| 5 | deception is therefore present. I would like to think
|
| 6 | that that is right, but it raises an interesting
|
| 7 | question and one that antitrust plays a role in.
|
| 8 | The question is, how do we get there? And it is
|
| 9 | not just an academic question for this audience. It is
|
| 10 | a question in which antitrust does not necessarily come
|
| 11 | with clean hands, not the Government, mind you, but the
|
| 12 | private enforcement. Specifically, because of the
|
| 13 | pervasive antitrust scrutiny of standards development
|
| 14 | that Justice Brennan spoke about in Allied Tube and
|
| 15 | particularly the imposition of vicarious liability on
|
| 16 | standards development organizations in Hydrolevel,
|
| 17 | standards organizations got very, very, very concerned
|
| 18 | about antitrust liability.
|
| 19 | They do not know much about it, but they know
|
| 20 | enough to be frightened, which is kind of like what we
|
| 21 | would feel if suddenly a brilliant men appeared at these
|
| 22 | doors and told us we would be locked in this room until
|
| 23 | we came up with the next standard for high speed
|
| 24 | wireless data communications, and the way they responded
|
| 25 | to that concern was by developing rules that |
63
| 1 | systematically discouraged the discussion of what seemed
|
| 2 | like efficient things to talk about, cost, patent
|
| 3 | validity, pricing, particularly in the context of input
|
| 4 | pricing.
|
| 5 | The standards development organizations, for
|
| 6 | whom the cost of defending that antitrust case to a
|
| 7 | motion of dismiss, let alone summary judgment, would
|
| 8 | consume multiples of their annual budget, decided we are
|
| 9 | not going there, and we are going to enforce these
|
| 10 | rules. That led to the development of what I will call
|
| 11 | a culture of standard-setting in which people can be
|
| 12 | forgiven for not having asked what seem in retrospect to
|
| 13 | be obvious questions, like, hey, I really like your
|
| 14 | technology contribution, how much is it going to cost me
|
| 15 | to practice that, and instead being satisfied with the
|
| 16 | answer, well, it will be reasonable, and also questions
|
| 17 | like, well, can you prove to me that that patent is
|
| 18 | valid? How much do -- do you have patents?
|
| 19 | These are questions that seem, again, pretty
|
| 20 | basic from the standpoint of lawyers with the benefit of
|
| 21 | reading cases in this area but that the rules of the
|
| 22 | standards development organizations often prohibited
|
| 23 | discussion of, which suggests a role for the agencies,
|
| 24 | but not necessarily a litigation role. I don't want to
|
| 25 | dismiss the litigation role, having been at Cisco during |
64
| 1 | the Rambus case and having talked to many engineers who
|
| 2 | were following the coverage of the case in EE Times,
|
| 3 | which is a leading semiconductor trade journal, which
|
| 4 | had a full-time reporter, believe it or not, covering
|
| 5 | the Rambus case.
|
| 6 | It did provoke a lot of interest, and cases are
|
| 7 | very useful from that standpoint, but beyond that, since
|
| 8 | antitrust in some sense played a role in creating this
|
| 9 | problem, it can also play a role, particularly the
|
| 10 | agencies, in helping address the culture of standards
|
| 11 | development by helping the agencies understand or the
|
| 12 | participants in standards development understand what
|
| 13 | they can and cannot do, and I would like to say that we
|
| 14 | are off to a good start in that, particularly with
|
| 15 | statements like Chairman Majoras' speech at Stanford
|
| 16 | last year, the recent Vita letter, and also some
|
| 17 | statements out of the European Union regarding this, but
|
| 18 | more dialogue is needed and more help from the
|
| 19 | enforcement organizations to figure out how far they can
|
| 20 | go to defend themselves from these risks, to in some
|
| 21 | sense change the culture, will nevertheless be
|
| 22 | necessary.
|
| 23 | Thank you.
|
| 24 | (Applause.)
|
| 25 | MR. DAGEN: Our final speaker during the |
65
| 1 | prepared presentations is George Cary. George is a
|
| 2 | partner at the D.C. office of Cleary Gottlieb. Before
|
| 3 | joining Cleary, George served as Deputy Director of the
|
| 4 | FTC's Bureau of Competition. George also was a
|
| 5 | principal contributor to the 1997 modification of the
|
| 6 | 1992 Federal Horizontal Merger Guidelines, which
|
| 7 | incorporated consideration of efficiencies in merger
|
| 8 | assessment. He is a frequent speaker and writer on
|
| 9 | antitrust issues.
|
| 10 | George?
|
| 11 | MR. CARY: Thanks, Rick.
|
| 12 | We seem to have started with some very broad
|
| 13 | principles at the beginning, through Susan's comments,
|
| 14 | and have now narrowed down through Gil's comments to a
|
| 15 | specific analysis of the standard-setting process. I am
|
| 16 | going to take it one level more narrowly, and I am going
|
| 17 | to talk about implementation of specific rules within
|
| 18 | the standard-setting context and whether violations of
|
| 19 | those specific rules ought to be treated as an antitrust
|
| 20 | issue, an issue of antitrust concern.
|
| 21 | The particular provision that I am going to talk
|
| 22 | about is so-called FRAND licensing commitments,
|
| 23 | commitments by participants in the standard-setting
|
| 24 | process to license their technology on fair, reasonable
|
| 25 | and nondiscriminatory terms, and I am going to start by |
66
| 1 | laying out several premises that you have already heard
|
| 2 | referenced this morning but which I believe apply in
|
| 3 | this case as well.
|
| 4 | First, standard-setting eliminates competition
|
| 5 | among alternative technologies. Companies that
|
| 6 | otherwise would be competing to promulgate proprietary
|
| 7 | standards have now gotten together and eliminated that
|
| 8 | competition by agreement. Antitrust, therefore, has a
|
| 9 | stake in policing that standard-setting activity.
|
| 10 | Second, when proprietary technology is made an
|
| 11 | essential element of an industry standard, the owner of
|
| 12 | that technology gains market power, exclusionary power,
|
| 13 | beyond what is inherent in the patent itself. Prior to
|
| 14 | the adoption of the standard, the company can exclude
|
| 15 | others from practicing the particular innovation
|
| 16 | incorporated in the patent. After inclusion in the
|
| 17 | standard, if it is an essential patent, the patent
|
| 18 | holder can exclude firms from practicing the standard
|
| 19 | generally. That is a much broader grant of monopoly
|
| 20 | power and one, again, where antitrust has a stake in how
|
| 21 | it is exercised.
|
| 22 | Third, the proposition that nondisclosure of
|
| 23 | patents after lock-in as part of a standard has occurred
|
| 24 | has been recognized as an antitrust concern. I think we
|
| 25 | have had a couple of references to that recognition this |
67
| 1 | morning, the Rambus case, the UNOCAL case, the Dell
|
| 2 | case, and other cases where the Commission and the
|
| 3 | courts have recognized that if you fail to disclose a
|
| 4 | patent, if you have a duty to disclose because you are
|
| 5 | part of the standard-setting body, and if, as a result,
|
| 6 | you have gained market power because the standard has
|
| 7 | now incorporated that patent, that raises antitrust
|
| 8 | concerns.
|
| 9 | My premise here today is that if you accept
|
| 10 | those three propositions, then it naturally follows that
|
| 11 | you have to accept the proposition that violation of
|
| 12 | commitments to particular terms that the standard body
|
| 13 | sets in order to ensure that there is no hold-up after
|
| 14 | lock-in and that there is no extension of a patent
|
| 15 | monopoly to a monoply of the standard as a whole, also
|
| 16 | must raise antitrust concerns. So, violations of other
|
| 17 | rules designed to constrain exploitation of lock-in
|
| 18 | raise similar competitive problems to failure to
|
| 19 | disclose, and therefore, ought to be treated similarly
|
| 20 | under the antitrust laws.
|
| 21 | What is a FRAND commitment? A FRAND commitment
|
| 22 | is an agreement to license on fair, reasonable and
|
| 23 | nondiscriminatory terms as a condition for including the
|
| 24 | intellectual property within the standard. The purpose
|
| 25 | of this is to avoid hold-up, the same purpose as a |
68
| 1 | requirement that patents be disclosed, and an obligation
|
| 2 | to disclose is ineffective if there is no recourse for
|
| 3 | violation of the FRAND commitment. If one can simply
|
| 4 | disclose, agree to license, and then fail to fulfill
|
| 5 | that agreement, it raises the same competitive concern
|
| 6 | as failure to disclose in the first instance.
|
| 7 | What are the problems that FRAND is designed to
|
| 8 | address? Before the standard is adopted, companies have
|
| 9 | options. They can invent around patents. They can use
|
| 10 | alternative patented technology. After the standard is
|
| 11 | adopted, those wishing to practice the standard no
|
| 12 | longer have options. They are locked into the use of
|
| 13 | the standard, and having sunk significant investment in
|
| 14 | standard-specific resources, it creates the potential
|
| 15 | for monopoly rents, because their elasticity of demand
|
| 16 | is now much more inelastic. They need to recover the
|
| 17 | investments that they have made in that standard, and
|
| 18 | they are going to be willing to pay a higher price for
|
| 19 | the patented technology than they would have prior to
|
| 20 | the adoption of the standard.
|
| 21 | Second, FRAND is a commitment to a common
|
| 22 | enterprise. Participating in the standard-setting body
|
| 23 | is a commitment to the efficiency and the success of
|
| 24 | that standard. That promise is that all participants in
|
| 25 | the standard, many of whom contribute intellectual |
69
| 1 | property of one form or another, have committed to each
|
| 2 | other as a matter of good faith and fair dealing to
|
| 3 | impose a mutual restraint on their exploitation of the
|
| 4 | market power created by that standard and a commitment
|
| 5 | that they will not price their intellectual property at
|
| 6 | such a level so as to make the standard itself
|
| 7 | uncompetitive or inefficient.
|
| 8 | FRAND is designed also to ensure competitive
|
| 9 | markets downstream for products that are compliant with
|
| 10 | the standard. To accomplish this, there is a
|
| 11 | nondiscriminatory element to a FRAND commitment where a
|
| 12 | holder of intellectual property promises not to use that
|
| 13 | control to disadvantage its competitors in producing
|
| 14 | parts, equipment, networks that are compliant with that
|
| 15 | standard. These are the goals of the standard-setting
|
| 16 | process in imposing FRAND, and these goals, I would
|
| 17 | submit, inform us as to how to properly interpret FRAND
|
| 18 | in the context of an antitrust enforcement.
|
| 19 | My next premise is that FRAND is enforceable
|
| 20 | under the antitrust laws under standard, conventional
|
| 21 | Section 2 theory. The holder of a patent included in a
|
| 22 | standard gains monopoly power. What is the definition
|
| 23 | of monopoly power under the cases? It is the power to
|
| 24 | exclude others from the marketplace and the power to
|
| 25 | control prices. If you hold a patent, if the patent is |
70
| 1 | essential to practicing the standard, and if you refuse
|
| 2 | to license that patent, you have effectively excluded
|
| 3 | competition from within the standard. If you hold a
|
| 4 | patent that is essential to practicing a standard and
|
| 5 | you charge an exorbitant royalty to competitors who are
|
| 6 | producing products compliant with the standard, you have
|
| 7 | imposed costs on your rivals, and those costs have to be
|
| 8 | passed onto consumers, and you have gained the power to
|
| 9 | control prices in that downstream market. Both of those
|
| 10 | things are the hallmarks of monopoly.
|
| 11 | When does monopoly violate the antitrust laws?
|
| 12 | It violates the antitrust laws where it is willfully
|
| 13 | acquired; in other words, where it is not competition on
|
| 14 | the merits, when the monopoly is not based on superior
|
| 15 | products, business acumen or historical accident. A
|
| 16 | willful violation of a FRAND commitment to license on
|
| 17 | fair, reasonable and nondiscriminatory terms is,
|
| 18 | therefore, monopolization. You have a monopoly by
|
| 19 | virtue of the power to exclude and control prices.
|
| 20 | Making a commitment to FRAND that you then renege upon
|
| 21 | or do not follow through on is willful acquisition of
|
| 22 | that market power, and therefore, the two would
|
| 23 | constitute a violation of the Sherman Act with a
|
| 24 | requisite showing of competitive effects.
|
| 25 | Antitrust courts are competent to enforce FRAND |
71
| 1 | commitments. Now, there has been some discussion about
|
| 2 | this, but again, the idea that you can have an antitrust
|
| 3 | violation by virtue of violating the essential elements
|
| 4 | of Section 2 with no antitrust recourse is one I think
|
| 5 | we would generally reject, and I think Susan articulated
|
| 6 | the principles of that very well. Some have argued that
|
| 7 | FRAND should be enforceable only under contract law or
|
| 8 | under tort law, but if it is a violation of the
|
| 9 | antitrust laws by virtue of its effect on competition,
|
| 10 | by virtue of its effect on consumers, then the public
|
| 11 | should have standing under the antitrust law and
|
| 12 | recourse to vindicate a violation of the Sherman Act.
|
| 13 | Participants in the standard-setting process may not
|
| 14 | have the requisite incentives, and in any event, there
|
| 15 | is a separate injury to consumers and to the public by
|
| 16 | virtue of the exploitation of market power that results
|
| 17 | from this kind of conduct.
|
| 18 | Finally, if a court is capable of determining
|
| 19 | whether conduct violates FRAND in a contract or tort
|
| 20 | case, there is no reason why, as a matter of judicial
|
| 21 | administerability, it cannot do the same in an antitrust
|
| 22 | case, and there is no reason under antitrust policy why
|
| 23 | it should not do so.
|
| 24 | I am now going to illustrate a couple of
|
| 25 | examples of FRAND violations and talk about how one |
72
| 1 | might go about proving such a violation in an antitrust
|
| 2 | case. The first is the most obvious, the extreme case
|
| 3 | of a refusal to license. If you have agreed to license,
|
| 4 | the standard has now incorporated your patent and you
|
| 5 | refuse to license, you now have the capability of
|
| 6 | monopolizing the market for standard-compliant parts and
|
| 7 | equipment and networks. That, it seems to me, is a
|
| 8 | clear violation of the FRAND commitment. It is also a
|
| 9 | violation of antitrust law, because now you have created
|
| 10 | a downstream monopoly.
|
| 11 | Second, if you discriminate against competitors,
|
| 12 | the "ND" part of the FRAND commitment, in
|
| 13 | standard-compliant markets, again, you are taking your
|
| 14 | monopoly on essential technology and you are extending
|
| 15 | it to product markets for standards-compliant parts and
|
| 16 | equipment. The hold-up potential is very real, and
|
| 17 | antitrust law has recognized this kind of vertical
|
| 18 | integration and abuse of monopoly in one market to gain
|
| 19 | a monopoly in another in a variety of settings.
|
| 20 | One example might be the case of a
|
| 21 | rate-regulated utility vertically integrating into a
|
| 22 | market where there is no such rate regulation and then
|
| 23 | using its market power to expel other competitors from
|
| 24 | that market, and once achieving a monopoly, charging
|
| 25 | higher prices in the unregulated market to evade |
73
| 1 | regulation in the regulated market. This is a similar
|
| 2 | kind of phenomenon where a company might agree to
|
| 3 | license on fair and reasonable terms but through
|
| 4 | discrimination that excludes competitors in compliant
|
| 5 | markets gains the ability then to charge the monopoly
|
| 6 | price in the compliant parts and equipment market.
|
| 7 | Such discrimination also has an effect on future
|
| 8 | innovation and competition, because often in these kinds
|
| 9 | of markets, you find that the companies that are making
|
| 10 | the compliant parts are learning about how the standard
|
| 11 | works in ways that allow them to make improvements on
|
| 12 | the technology in the standard, and in the next
|
| 13 | generation of standardization, provide a competitive
|
| 14 | alternative to the firm that provided the essential
|
| 15 | technology in the first instance. Eliminating those
|
| 16 | kinds of innovators and competitors cements the position
|
| 17 | of the firm providing the technology in the first
|
| 18 | generation and potentially permits them to succeed to a
|
| 19 | monopoly in the second generation without making the
|
| 20 | kinds of commitments that a standard-setting body might
|
| 21 | otherwise require or by raising what they might be able
|
| 22 | to charge as a fair and reasonable royalty in the second
|
| 23 | round.
|
| 24 | Again, discrimination is well known to antitrust
|
| 25 | courts. Antitrust courts look at that in the context of |
74
| 1 | the Robinson-Patman Act, of the Sherman Act, of
|
| 2 | discriminatory pricing, of predatory pricing. This is
|
| 3 | not a foreign concept, and antitrust courts have
|
| 4 | demonstrated an ability to administer these kinds of
|
| 5 | rules.
|
| 6 | What does fair and reasonable mean? Again, we
|
| 7 | have to look at the underlying purposes of the
|
| 8 | commitment that is being made in the light of the
|
| 9 | antitrust principles that are being addressed here.
|
| 10 | Fair and reasonable means a royalty that reflects the
|
| 11 | competitive environment before lock-in. I think Gil
|
| 12 | described it very well. It is the value of the
|
| 13 | innovation separate and apart from the additional value
|
| 14 | that that innovation takes on by virtue of its
|
| 15 | incorporation in the standard and by virtue of the
|
| 16 | lock-in created by the standard.
|
| 17 | Second, fair and reasonable means a royalty that
|
| 18 | is sufficient to allow the standard itself to be a
|
| 19 | commercial success, so that you do not have a situation
|
| 20 | where the royalties are so high that the standard is
|
| 21 | debilitated, weakened, and is not able to provide the
|
| 22 | efficiencies that the standard is designed to provide.
|
| 23 | So, how would one determine a fair and
|
| 24 | reasonable value? One would look at the alternatives
|
| 25 | that were available to the standard-setting body before |
75
| 1 | the standard was adopted. One would compare how close
|
| 2 | those alternatives are, and one would ascribe a value
|
| 3 | based on the benefits that the chosen technology
|
| 4 | provides over and above the other alternatives. You
|
| 5 | then might adjust that royalty if you find yourself in a
|
| 6 | situation where the cumulative royalty stack is so high
|
| 7 | that it impedes the efficient adoption of the standard.
|
| 8 | Again, antitrust courts routinely compare the
|
| 9 | but-for competitive world with the observed market when
|
| 10 | assessing constraints, and this is no different. In a
|
| 11 | price-fixing case, you would look at the price set
|
| 12 | through the illegal restraint. You would then, through
|
| 13 | economic evidence, look at what the price would have
|
| 14 | been in the but-for competitive world. You would look
|
| 15 | at the comparison, and you would say the difference is
|
| 16 | damages. Again, here, one might look at what options
|
| 17 | were available to the standard-setting body, how close
|
| 18 | those options were, what did the standard-setting body
|
| 19 | at the time think about their alternatives, and how much
|
| 20 | incremental value, separate and apart from the lock-in
|
| 21 | value, did the accepted technology provide?
|
| 22 | Determining the fair and reasonable royalty is
|
| 23 | within the competence of courts and enforcement
|
| 24 | agencies. Courts routinely determine in the context of
|
| 25 | a patent infringement suit what would a reasonable |
76
| 1 | royalty have been. The courts have developed a
|
| 2 | standard. The Georgia Pacific case lays out a whole
|
| 3 | series of standards that might be used to do that.
|
| 4 | There are industry benchmarks that could be looked at.
|
| 5 | There are examples of the licensing of the same
|
| 6 | technology in a context outside of the standard, what
|
| 7 | kind of royalty did that patent attract where it did not
|
| 8 | have the benefit of the standard?
|
| 9 | A comparison of royalties charged in other
|
| 10 | standards might also provide a benchmark, and a
|
| 11 | comparison of the royalty charged in a competitive
|
| 12 | market with no FRAND obligation might also be looked at.
|
| 13 | So, courts have experience in assessing those kinds of
|
| 14 | things. There is a body of case law that informs us,
|
| 15 | there is an antitrust principle that gives us a
|
| 16 | benchmark, and the courts are certainly capable of
|
| 17 | analyzing those factors.
|
| 18 | So, in conclusion, I would cite to you Justice
|
| 19 | Ginburg's decision in the Cable and Wireless case that
|
| 20 | was cited previously, and I would just quote from
|
| 21 | Justice Ginsburg when he says, "Anticompetitive conduct
|
| 22 | can come in too many different forms and is too
|
| 23 | dependent upon context for any court or commentator ever
|
| 24 | to have enumerated all of the varieties." It does no
|
| 25 | good to shut one barn door and leave others open. It |
77
| 1 | does no good to say failure to disclose is an antitrust
|
| 2 | violation, but disclosure with commitments that you then
|
| 3 | refuse to implement cannot violate the antitrust laws.
|
| 4 | The courts are capable of looking at the factual context
|
| 5 | and coming to reasoned decisions about whether the
|
| 6 | antitrust laws have been violated because of the
|
| 7 | creation of market power and whether a particular
|
| 8 | actor's conduct should be adjusted as a result of the
|
| 9 | commitments they made.
|
| 10 | Thank you.
|
| 11 | (Applause.)
|
| 12 | MR. DAGEN: And I think it is now time for a
|
| 13 | little inter-panel discussion. Each panelist -- I think
|
| 14 | we will probably go in the same order that we did the
|
| 15 | presentations, if you have any comments that you want to
|
| 16 | share addressing other panelists' presentations or
|
| 17 | questions that you want to pose to other panelists, we
|
| 18 | can try to keep track of them and either have them
|
| 19 | addressed as part of this discussion or further on down
|
| 20 | the line. We are thinking three to five minutes per
|
| 21 | person, if you have got that amount to go through, and
|
| 22 | we will see how it proceeds from there.
|
| 23 | MS. CREIGHTON: I am not sure I have three to
|
| 24 | five minutes of things, but I had just a few points, I
|
| 25 | think one comment on what Preston had to say a couple on |
78
| 1 | what Gil had to say.
|
| 2 | First, on Preston's observations, I found
|
| 3 | intriguing his remark by the one lawyer who quoted that
|
| 4 | he does his level best whenever he can to turn a
|
| 5 | contract dispute into an antitrust claim. I would think
|
| 6 | that typically, if people are in a contractual
|
| 7 | relationship, that means that they are probably
|
| 8 | somewhere in the vertical chain of supply, and so my
|
| 9 | guess is that those antitrust claims that he is turning
|
| 10 | his contract disputes into are a whole variety of what
|
| 11 | we would view as sort of typical arguments about
|
| 12 | vertical restrictions, and yet somehow we do not think
|
| 13 | that that problem with turning contracts into antitrust
|
| 14 | disputes means that we should invalidate all those types
|
| 15 | of Section 2 claims sort of ex ante as somehow
|
| 16 | invalidating them.
|
| 17 | So, sort of returning to the point I had made
|
| 18 | about we need to separate the question about problems we
|
| 19 | have with private actions from the substantive antitrust
|
| 20 | analysis, I guess I would pose as a broad experiment,
|
| 21 | suppose we did away with private antitrust enforcement
|
| 22 | just for the time being. In that circumstance, I would
|
| 23 | be curious for those who have voiced concerns about
|
| 24 | bringing -- for the Government to bring an antitrust
|
| 25 | enforcement action in the context of -- I guess what I |
79
| 1 | would call opportunism. If the Government is satisfied
|
| 2 | that that conduct has, in fact, caused durable market
|
| 3 | power, why would we nonetheless still eschew government
|
| 4 | enforcement to remedy it?
|
| 5 | With respect to Gil's point about intent, I
|
| 6 | had -- that was actually -- I think I share the concern
|
| 7 | that he does and had mentioned that one of the things
|
| 8 | that can be misleading, so to speak, about using
|
| 9 | business torts as our sort of initial predicate act for
|
| 10 | an antitrust claim is that we really are not about
|
| 11 | intent and that what you are trying to get at with a
|
| 12 | business tort is different from what we are driving at
|
| 13 | with antitrust, and so some folks had mentioned about
|
| 14 | inadvertent deception.
|
| 15 | I guess what I have tended to think of as
|
| 16 | deception, I have been tending to think of -- I will
|
| 17 | misuse Mr. Williamson again -- I think he defined
|
| 18 | opportunism as self-interest with guile, and so I think
|
| 19 | understanding it in that context, if we have -- what we
|
| 20 | are really concerned about in antitrust is self-interest
|
| 21 | with guile that causes durable market power, and that is
|
| 22 | really what we are talking about here, not some narrow
|
| 23 | business tort that may or may not fit the particular
|
| 24 | facts of what we are concerned with, which is consumer
|
| 25 | harm created by such market power. |
80
| 1 | And then my final point, I wanted to amplify and
|
| 2 | underscore a point that I thought Gil made quite well,
|
| 3 | which was sort of going back to the causation question
|
| 4 | that people have raised with Section 2 claims in this
|
| 5 | area. I would agree with his point that it would seem
|
| 6 | that many of our more traditional antitrust cases
|
| 7 | actually do pose that causation problem more forcefully
|
| 8 | than the kind of opportunism cases that we have been
|
| 9 | focused on here. So, for example, in the cases that Gil
|
| 10 | had identified, the Microsoft case, the AT&T case, the
|
| 11 | IBM case, obviously untangling the effect of the
|
| 12 | particular exclusionary acts is a challenge, but that
|
| 13 | does not mean it is a challenge that we should forgo.
|
| 14 | I would say, by contrast, in an Orange Book
|
| 15 | case, if you conclude that there actually was a listing
|
| 16 | that was made self-interestedly with guile and there was
|
| 17 | a patent on it that automatically excluded competitors
|
| 18 | from the market for 30 months where competition should
|
| 19 | not have been excluded, the causation issue is pretty
|
| 20 | straightforward. So, I would agree with Gil on that,
|
| 21 | that sometimes the standard-setting cases, misuse of
|
| 22 | government processes, the causation issue actually can
|
| 23 | be quite straightforward.
|
| 24 | That was it for my comments.
|
| 25 | MR. DAGEN: Thank you. |
81
| 1 | DR. McAFEE: Thank you.
|
| 2 | Let me actually echo something that Gil said,
|
| 3 | which is that it would be useful for the agencies to
|
| 4 | provide guidance to the standard-setting organizations.
|
| 5 | In particular, the prohibition of talking about costs or
|
| 6 | for that matter the prohibition of negotiating prices
|
| 7 | for the use of patented technology in advance are
|
| 8 | actually quite harmful in making good decisions. It is
|
| 9 | as if you had to buy a car without knowing what the
|
| 10 | prices are, and so the inability or the fear of
|
| 11 | discussing what technologies will cost when implemented
|
| 12 | in the standard is itself something that is designed to
|
| 13 | procure standards inefficiently.
|
| 14 | The second thing I want to say is that -- and
|
| 15 | also in response to Gil -- is when you buy a bath robe,
|
| 16 | it comes with a somewhat optimistic statement that one
|
| 17 | size fits all. One of the things that you learn in
|
| 18 | studying standard-setting organizations is that they
|
| 19 | solve very different problems from each other, and they
|
| 20 | make their decisions in a very different environment,
|
| 21 | and I think one of the things that will be a challenge
|
| 22 | for providing guidance to standard-setting organizations
|
| 23 | is that they actually -- one size will not fit all very
|
| 24 | well.
|
| 25 | In particular, the amount of information that |
82
| 1 | they have available to them at the time that they make
|
| 2 | decisions is often very different. I know JEDEC, in
|
| 3 | particular, would discuss proposed standards, and then
|
| 4 | the individuals would go back and work in their labs and
|
| 5 | see whether or not the proposed standard was something
|
| 6 | they could actually build themselves and what problems
|
| 7 | needed to be solved in order to practice the tentative
|
| 8 | standard. They very much were not necessarily on the
|
| 9 | same page, nor did they want to get on the same page in
|
| 10 | the sense that they did not want to reveal things that
|
| 11 | they knew about the technology, because that would give
|
| 12 | them a competitive edge. Giving advice about just what
|
| 13 | they are allowed to do in such a circumstance where
|
| 14 | standards are chosen, where how the standard is going to
|
| 15 | be implemented is not yet even known, is going to be a
|
| 16 | challenge.
|
| 17 | And then finally, I have to agree with George
|
| 18 | that it certainly is not a solution to say we can
|
| 19 | practice a RAND -- if I make a promise that I will
|
| 20 | satisfy a RAND, which there is another definition of
|
| 21 | RAND, which is research and no development, which seems
|
| 22 | appropriate in standard-setting organizations, but --
|
| 23 | and then charge an exorbitant fee after the fact, after
|
| 24 | the standard has been adopted, that is no solution at
|
| 25 | all, and certainly the antitrust laws -- that is, I am |
83
| 1 | going to completely agree -- that certainly the
|
| 2 | antitrust laws, if they cover the deceptive conduct,
|
| 3 | must also cover the failure to provide a RAND or failure
|
| 4 | to live up to the RAND assurance. I am less confident,
|
| 5 | however, that the courts can actually effectively
|
| 6 | interpret what is reasonable.
|
| 7 | Thank you.
|
| 8 | DR. BROCKMEYER: I would like to comment a
|
| 9 | little bit on some of the remarks of Preston and
|
| 10 | Richard.
|
| 11 | First of all, with respect to the issue of
|
| 12 | private enforcement, I do not believe that we should
|
| 13 | eliminate private enforcement, and indeed, I think the
|
| 14 | decisions of the court over the last 20 years or so have
|
| 15 | made it much more difficult for the plaintiff to
|
| 16 | proceed, and indeed, the argument of I guess last Monday
|
| 17 | or so in the Twombley case could also have an effect on
|
| 18 | private enforcement, albeit that case is a Section 1
|
| 19 | case.
|
| 20 | But I do want to touch on private enforcement in
|
| 21 | that I believe private enforcement is one way to explain
|
| 22 | the result in Conwood. While not knowing what U.S.
|
| 23 | Tobacco's presentation was before the jury with respect
|
| 24 | to the existence of monopoly power and accepting the
|
| 25 | concession that it did have monopoly power that was in |
84
| 1 | the Sixth Circuit, when we think about the evidence that
|
| 2 | was put forth and the reasonable juror sitting there,
|
| 3 | hearing about a monopolist whose salespeople are running
|
| 4 | around ripping out racks and throwing them in dumpsters
|
| 5 | and various other types of conduct with respect to I
|
| 6 | guess misleading information being provided or whatever,
|
| 7 | in my view, the result in Conwood is not particularly
|
| 8 | surprising given that it was in a private enforcement
|
| 9 | setting.
|
| 10 | Now the question becomes, well, do we want to
|
| 11 | deter that? Well, I think one way to look at it, and
|
| 12 | maybe this is Susan's point, is does the result in
|
| 13 | Conwood somehow deter efficient conduct? Are we going
|
| 14 | to deter throwing out racks or whatever or are we going
|
| 15 | to -- whatever, and I think the end result is I do not
|
| 16 | find Conwood to be a particularly surprising case, and I
|
| 17 | think it can be explained in the context of private
|
| 18 | antitrust enforcement and a reaction of juries to
|
| 19 | evidence.
|
| 20 | With respect to the pharmaceutical arena and
|
| 21 | Hatch-Waxman and the regulatory scheme, Richard is
|
| 22 | absolutely right. As I've mentioned in one of my
|
| 23 | principles, I think we need to take into account the
|
| 24 | structure of the industry and the regulation involved.
|
| 25 | On the other hand, when there is deception, when there |
85
| 1 | is anticompetitive conduct that disrupts the balance
|
| 2 | that is struck in Hatch-Waxman, then I think antitrust
|
| 3 | has an appropriate role to play. Indeed, I would say
|
| 4 | that the Commission's case against Bristol-Myers and the
|
| 5 | deception that was involved with Bristol-Myers is a very
|
| 6 | good example of where antitrust properly intervened in
|
| 7 | this particular setting.
|
| 8 | MR. DAGEN: Richard?
|
| 9 | DR. ROZEK: Well, as an economist, I was struck
|
| 10 | by the discussion this morning that raised questions of
|
| 11 | measurement. Economists like to practice their craft
|
| 12 | and measure things. It comes up a lot in the areas of
|
| 13 | misleading and deceptive conduct. One area where it
|
| 14 | comes up frequently is in the issue of false
|
| 15 | advertising. How do you measure whether an ad is really
|
| 16 | false? It could have on its face a false statement or
|
| 17 | it could be perceived as conveying a certain message
|
| 18 | that is inaccurate, and so economists can do surveys and
|
| 19 | interpret that survey result.
|
| 20 | But in some cases, it is much harder to measure
|
| 21 | whether something is misleading or deceptive, and I
|
| 22 | think back to some of the cases I have worked on where
|
| 23 | in one situation, for example, an organization had
|
| 24 | funded some scientific research; it was concerned about
|
| 25 | the scientific and statistical merit of the research; |
86
| 1 | that is, the scientific protocol followed and the
|
| 2 | statistical tools that were used to analyze the results
|
| 3 | of that data.
|
| 4 | So, the company raised legitimate questions, I
|
| 5 | thought, as a reviewer of an academic article would
|
| 6 | raise in commenting on the methodologies used to conduct
|
| 7 | the research, but it was criticized for doing that and
|
| 8 | for suggesting that the article not be published. To
|
| 9 | avoid bad publicity, the company just paid a large
|
| 10 | settlement. How to measure whether that was -- whether
|
| 11 | their withholding publication -- or their request to
|
| 12 | withhold publication of the article was really
|
| 13 | misleading or whether there were legitimate scientific
|
| 14 | questions that needed to be resolved before publication,
|
| 15 | was a much more difficult issue.
|
| 16 | That brings me to the question that was raised
|
| 17 | earlier about private actions following on government
|
| 18 | settlements. When someone settles a particular case
|
| 19 | with the FTC or the Department of Justice, and they may
|
| 20 | have done a calculation at that point that settling the
|
| 21 | case was -- even if they could win, settling the case
|
| 22 | was within that company's interest, was in their
|
| 23 | interests to settle the case, but then they do not
|
| 24 | always adequately factor in the private antitrust
|
| 25 | actions that are going to follow and the damages that |
87
| 1 | are at issue in those private cases. So, they do not
|
| 2 | take a complete picture of the damage calculation and
|
| 3 | factor it in when they settle.
|
| 4 | So, sometimes -- I have had cases like this,
|
| 5 | too, where people come to us after two or three of the
|
| 6 | private cases have gone forward and say, "we are just
|
| 7 | tired of paying all this money. We are going to fight
|
| 8 | this now." And I say, well, you know, you should have
|
| 9 | fought it at the FTC or the Department of Justice,
|
| 10 | because you could have a better case there on market
|
| 11 | definition and on entry conditions and so on. In some
|
| 12 | settlement discussions, the full impact of the private
|
| 13 | cases are not factored into those calculations.
|
| 14 | And then I was struck by George's comments on
|
| 15 | the FRAND standards and what evidence is actually used
|
| 16 | to determine whether a royalty rate is fair and
|
| 17 | reasonable. I think the discussion of Georgia Pacific
|
| 18 | factors borrowing from the patent literature, and the
|
| 19 | wealth of information in the tax literature on applying
|
| 20 | the arm's length standard to valuing intangible property
|
| 21 | on transfers between affiliated companies such as a UK
|
| 22 | research lab and an Irish manufacturing plant, that
|
| 23 | would be very helpful to apply in the FRAND context.
|
| 24 | Now, I was also struck by the discussions of
|
| 25 | private cases and whether or not there should be a ban |
88
| 1 | on private antitrust actions. It seems to me that not
|
| 2 | an outright ban, but maybe some reform in the process.
|
| 3 | Again, speaking to some of the cases I have been
|
| 4 | involved in from my own experience, there was no reason
|
| 5 | that the brand name antitrust litigation should have
|
| 6 | gone on as long as it did until Judge Kocoras made the
|
| 7 | decision that it was meritless. All but four
|
| 8 | pharmaceutical firms who were initially sued in that
|
| 9 | case settled. That case went on too long, and there
|
| 10 | should have been a process in place to make a decision
|
| 11 | much faster. So, there are areas where there could be
|
| 12 | reform in the private antitrust cases to at least render
|
| 13 | decisions on frivolous cases much faster.
|
| 14 | I was struck also by Preston's comments on
|
| 15 | Canada because of the absence of private actions. I did
|
| 16 | a study of health care reform in Canada and compared it
|
| 17 | to health care reform initiatives in the United States.
|
| 18 | One of the key differences between Canadians and
|
| 19 | Americans -- residents of the United States that you see
|
| 20 | is that in Canada, they have a much greater confidence
|
| 21 | in the Government as a solver of problems, and so they
|
| 22 | trust the Government to provide their health care and to
|
| 23 | provide high-quality health care. Whereas in the United
|
| 24 | States, I think we saw it with the Clinton Health Care
|
| 25 | Reform Initiatives, there was a great deal of distrust |
89
| 1 | in the Government as a solver of problems and more the
|
| 2 | Government as a creator of problems. So, there is a
|
| 3 | fundamental difference in Canada and the U.S. just in
|
| 4 | terms of how the residents in those countries interpret
|
| 5 | the Government and government action.
|
| 6 | I think part of the reason you do not see
|
| 7 | private antitrust cases in Canada is that, "Well, the
|
| 8 | Government will take care of it" is the solution. Those
|
| 9 | are my comments.
|
| 10 | MR. OHANA: I'll segue on the point that the
|
| 11 | Government will take care of it. I wanted to pick up on
|
| 12 | Preston's comment regarding one size fits all and the
|
| 13 | role that I posited for antitrust agencies relative to
|
| 14 | helping standards development organizations and their
|
| 15 | participants understand what I will call the limits to
|
| 16 | self-help to avoid deception.
|
| 17 | I agree with Preston that one size does not fit
|
| 18 | all. The point I was making maybe was a little bit
|
| 19 | different. I am not positing a role for the agencies in
|
| 20 | creating the uniform code of standards disclosure rules
|
| 21 | or standards patent licensing rules. Far from it.
|
| 22 | Standards organizations need, because of the variety
|
| 23 | that Preston mentioned, a lot of freedom in that area.
|
| 24 | I think, nevertheless, it is useful for the
|
| 25 | agencies to do as the Antitrust Division did in the Vita |
90
| 1 | letter and as the European Commission did in the letter
|
| 2 | they wrote ETSI in June of this year, to set out what
|
| 3 | are the points that you cannot go past? For example, in
|
| 4 | ETSI, the European Telecom Standards Institute, one of
|
| 5 | the proposals was to essentially create a cap that at
|
| 6 | the start of a standards development exercise, all
|
| 7 | participants would agree that any IP disclosed would
|
| 8 | essentially be under a cap of X percent, and even if you
|
| 9 | had a very fundamental, very broad, very valuable
|
| 10 | patent, you were in there with the rest of the patents
|
| 11 | fighting for your share of X percent, and the European
|
| 12 | Commission quite rightly said that that was problematic,
|
| 13 | and it is that role that I see the agencies playing in
|
| 14 | terms of limiting what is now the considerable desire of
|
| 15 | standards development organizations to enact rules that
|
| 16 | address this problem proactively ex ante rather than ex
|
| 17 | post.
|
| 18 | MR. CARY: Just a couple of observations.
|
| 19 | First, I think that Preston's observations about the
|
| 20 | costs of antitrust enforcement, the difficulties of
|
| 21 | administerability and perverse incentives are all points
|
| 22 | that we constantly have to keep in mind and keep guard
|
| 23 | of in terms of how one interprets and applies the
|
| 24 | antitrust laws. But having said that, I think those
|
| 25 | comments also paint with too broad a brush, and maybe |
91
| 1 | one size fits all does not apply in that context either.
|
| 2 | I would say that for those of you who have not
|
| 3 | read it, and I am assuming that is not very many, the
|
| 4 | "Cheap Exclusion" article that Susan authored with her
|
| 5 | co-authors is a brilliant piece. The idea that one can
|
| 6 | rationally set about determining where to apply
|
| 7 | prosecutorial discretion in a systematic way in coming
|
| 8 | up with arrays of combinations of anticompetitive
|
| 9 | conduct where antitrust enforcement is likely to do as
|
| 10 | little harm as possible, is a prototype for how to make
|
| 11 | prosecutorial decisions going forward.
|
| 12 | And using that framework and integrating the
|
| 13 | points that Michael made, I would set up an array, and I
|
| 14 | would say, for example, at one end of the deceptive
|
| 15 | conduct that we have been talking about might be false
|
| 16 | advertising or sham litigation. In sham litigation, you
|
| 17 | have a built-in control: You have a judge. And if the
|
| 18 | case is frivolous and has no reasonable basis,
|
| 19 | presumably a judge would be easily in a position to get
|
| 20 | rid of the case quickly and efficiently; and if the case
|
| 21 | is more complicated so that he cannot get rid of it
|
| 22 | quickly and efficiently; then perhaps that is correlated
|
| 23 | with the idea that there is a reasonable basis to
|
| 24 | litigate the claim, and it ought to go forward.
|
| 25 | So, sham litigation as anticompetitive conduct |
92
| 1 | would seem to be one which has a built-in mechanism to
|
| 2 | police it, and in addition, one where the
|
| 3 | anticompetitive injury is likely to be small. Attorneys
|
| 4 | are expensive, but relative to the sizes of most
|
| 5 | business, paying an attorney is not likely to debilitate
|
| 6 | you from competing.
|
| 7 | At the other extreme would be the
|
| 8 | standard-setting discussion that we have had where SSO's
|
| 9 | create networks, durable market power is created through
|
| 10 | lock-in, it is very, very difficult to change those
|
| 11 | networks once they are established, and the
|
| 12 | opportunities for exploitation of market power are
|
| 13 | therefore significant.
|
| 14 | In addition, you have got antitrust concerns in
|
| 15 | participants establishing royalty rates pre-adoption of
|
| 16 | the standard which, again, puts a premium on antitrust
|
| 17 | enforcement after the fact if there is a pattern of
|
| 18 | exploitation that a participant then engages in. Maybe
|
| 19 | somewhere in between might be the Orange Book context
|
| 20 | where there is an immediate anticompetitive effect from
|
| 21 | bringing the litigation, separate and apart from the
|
| 22 | standard sham litigation (where the anticompetitive
|
| 23 | effect might flaw only as a result of paying attorneys'
|
| 24 | fees). So that is a middle ground, in light of the fact
|
| 25 | that you still have a judge who could dispense with the |
93
| 1 | case very quickly if it is truly a sham.
|
| 2 | So, I do not think it is necessarily appropriate
|
| 3 | to say that antitrust has no role in any of these areas
|
| 4 | because of the possibility of an unintended consequence.
|
| 5 | Instead, I think you can array these things and you can
|
| 6 | apply antitrust where it is going to have the highest
|
| 7 | likelihood of procompetitive impact and the lowest
|
| 8 | possibility of making a mistake.
|
| 9 | MR. DAGEN: Thank you.
|
| 10 | Does anybody else have any comments they want to
|
| 11 | share before we move into our rapid-fire questioning
|
| 12 | period?
|
| 13 | (No response.)
|
| 14 | MR. DAGEN: Okay, we have some slides that I
|
| 15 | think we will get to in a second with some propositions
|
| 16 | and questions, but I think just since George went last,
|
| 17 | I just had a question about one of the propositions he
|
| 18 | just made.
|
| 19 | So, in terms of your sham litigation, which you
|
| 20 | put at one end, it sounds like it would be a very strong
|
| 21 | presumption that there would be no sham litigation
|
| 22 | monopolization claims, because it either gets disposed
|
| 23 | of quickly, in which case there is no harm, or it lasts,
|
| 24 | in which case it is not sham. So, is that --
|
| 25 | MR. CARY: Oh, I do not know that I would use |
94
| 1 | the term "presumption," because that implies a legal
|
| 2 | rule. I would say that as a matter of logic and maybe
|
| 3 | some casual empiricism, that will tend to be the case,
|
| 4 | and therefore, as a matter of prosecutorial discretion
|
| 5 | or as a matter of the kind of scrutiny that a judge
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| 6 | might impose on such a case, it should be at the end
|
| 7 | where the plaintiff might have to demonstrate a little
|
| 8 | bit more in terms of context and effect than they might
|
| 9 | in other contexts.
|
| 10 | MR. DAGEN: Any views from the rest of the
|
| 11 | panel?
|
| 12 | DR. BROCKMEYER: I would like to make a quick
|
| 13 | comment about Richard and what George just said about
|
| 14 | mechanisms for quick disposal of cases. I am going to
|
| 15 | point two cases out to you and Judge Schwarzer. Judge
|
| 16 | Schwarzer attempted in the Northern District of
|
| 17 | California to impose a screen -- and I will use the word
|
| 18 | screening mechanism to shed cases quickly, limited
|
| 19 | discovery, and in an effort to determine whether there
|
| 20 | was merit to the claim. If there was not, dismissal,
|
| 21 | and you move on, okay?
|
| 22 | There are two cases of Judge Schwarzer's in that
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| 23 | period that went to the Supreme Court, and both were
|
| 24 | reversed, Kodak and Hartford. Those both came from
|
| 25 | Judge Schwarzer. So, while I recognize that, I do not |
95
| 1 | know how receptive the courts will be to that type of
|
| 2 | procedure.
|
| 3 | And so as a result, you are right, George, yes,
|
| 4 | one way to say you can get rid of the sham litigation
|
| 5 | quickly. Possibly not. It may depend on the judge.
|
| 6 | MS. CREIGHTON: Maybe if I could just pick up on
|
| 7 | George's idea, sort of to continue -- and I also thank
|
| 8 | you for the kind remarks, George -- because I agree, I
|
| 9 | think, that it is definitely not one size fits all when
|
| 10 | we are looking at this kind of conduct. Some is much
|
| 11 | more likely to arise in circumstances where there is a
|
| 12 | likelihood of causing durable market power, and I
|
| 13 | think -- and I would agree with George that at the other
|
| 14 | end, deceptive marketing claims where you are talking
|
| 15 | about -- particularly when it is sort of dueling claims
|
| 16 | about products, I think Judge Easterbrook in Sanderson
|
| 17 | versus Culligan cases correctly points out on the do no
|
| 18 | harm end of things or sort of not trying to chill
|
| 19 | procompetitive conduct.
|
| 20 | I think the FTC for the last 20 or 30 years has
|
| 21 | been a pretty aggressive proponent of the notion that
|
| 22 | advertising is a good, and so this is one area where if
|
| 23 | you allowed claims of any -- sort of I disagree with
|
| 24 | that advertising, he said bad things about my product,
|
| 25 | that is an antitrust claim, that kind of claim can chill |
96
| 1 | procompetitive conduct and that advertising is as much a
|
| 2 | good for consumers as price competition. So, I
|
| 3 | appreciate George's refinement of my analysis, and I
|
| 4 | would agree with it.
|
| 5 | MR. DAGEN: So, Hill, did you have anything you
|
| 6 | wanted to talk about before we move on?
|
| 7 | MR. WELLFORD: I have one question that several
|
| 8 | people glanced over, and I think George maybe most
|
| 9 | directly, so I will start there.
|
| 10 | What does your point about incentives say about
|
| 11 | the kind of remedies that we should look for to be
|
| 12 | procompetitive or perhaps even prohibit as the FTC tried
|
| 13 | to do in the Schering case, if you want to characterize
|
| 14 | it that way? You said, you know, certain participants
|
| 15 | in standard-setting organizations, for example, may not
|
| 16 | have the incentive to correct the -- to challenge or
|
| 17 | challenge the correct way. Perhaps some people who
|
| 18 | claim to represent the public, which was your point,
|
| 19 | some would have better incentives than others. Is there
|
| 20 | anything to that that you would like to share?
|
| 21 | MR. CARY: Well, yeah, let me back up a bit and
|
| 22 | start from the beginning on it. You start with the
|
| 23 | question, why shouldn't a violation of these kinds of
|
| 24 | commitments be enforceable only in contract or tort? I
|
| 25 | guess a wrinkle on that would be if it is remediable in |
97
| 1 | contract or tort, why bother with antitrust,
|
| 2 | particularly when, overlaying Preston's presentation,
|
| 3 | antitrust litigation can do harm?
|
| 4 | I was attempting to answer that question by
|
| 5 | saying that there is a harm that might extend beyond
|
| 6 | those individuals that might have standing to bring a
|
| 7 | contract claim or a fraud claim, that that harm is also
|
| 8 | a harm to consumers, and that that harm ought to be
|
| 9 | vindicated. So, for example, let's say you have someone
|
| 10 | who is not part of the original standard-setting
|
| 11 | proceeding; let's say that a particular state law of
|
| 12 | contract limits the rights of third-party beneficiaries
|
| 13 | to only those who are directly anticipated to be
|
| 14 | beneficiaries; and therefore, a nonparticipant in
|
| 15 | standard-setting would not qualify, they would not have
|
| 16 | a contract claim directly. Nonetheless, there might be
|
| 17 | a situation where a violation of the standard-setting
|
| 18 | rules would cause competitive harm, and that individual,
|
| 19 | without standing under contract, might be an appropriate
|
| 20 | party to vindicate it.
|
| 21 | A second example might be a state fraud statute
|
| 22 | or a state common law rule of fraud which says if the
|
| 23 | representation was not made to you, you have no standing
|
| 24 | to vindicate the fraud. Again, if a misrepresentation
|
| 25 | is made about patents, for example; if the |
98
| 1 | standard-setting body for one reason or another decides
|
| 2 | not to pursue that, say, for example, the perpetrator of
|
| 3 | that misrepresentation has now stacked the
|
| 4 | standard-setting body with its own agents,
|
| 5 | representatives, network of suppliers, allies; but there
|
| 6 | is a hold-up in the sense that the failure to disclose
|
| 7 | the patent was real, and now the patent is being
|
| 8 | asserted, why wouldn't a member of the public who is
|
| 9 | paying the bill for that violation of the
|
| 10 | standard-setting body's rules have an opportunity to
|
| 11 | bring an antitrust case, claiming the antitrust damage?
|
| 12 | It is that kind of thing that I was referring
|
| 13 | to, in saying that people with standing may not have the
|
| 14 | incentives, and people without standing may have
|
| 15 | suffered the consumer injury or the anticompetitive
|
| 16 | harm.
|
| 17 | MR. WELLFORD: Does it follow from your analysis
|
| 18 | there that a member of the public should be limited to
|
| 19 | remedies that benefit the public or the competitive
|
| 20 | process as a whole as opposed to that particular person
|
| 21 | who has brought the lawsuit, and is that done today or
|
| 22 | can it be effectively done?
|
| 23 | MR. CARY: I do not think that there is a
|
| 24 | necessity, just because of the standard-setting context,
|
| 25 | to revisit all of the rules of antitrust injury and |
99
| 1 | antitrust damages. So, for example, the courts have
|
| 2 | established rules as to what consumers can recover. The
|
| 3 | courts have established rules as to what competitors who
|
| 4 | are the target of the anticompetitive activity might
|
| 5 | recover.
|
| 6 | Those rules do not need be any different in the
|
| 7 | context of standard-setting than they would be in any
|
| 8 | other monopolization case or price-fixing case or other
|
| 9 | antitrust violation. I do believe that an antitrust
|
| 10 | injury requirement is appropriate.
|
| 11 | MR. OHANA: Just to comment, to pick up on
|
| 12 | something George said, it is by no means universal in
|
| 13 | standards development organizations' IPR policies that
|
| 14 | any implementer of the standard is given explicitly the
|
| 15 | right to sue to vindicate a disclosure or a
|
| 16 | nondisclosure made to the standards development
|
| 17 | organizations. In fact, it is extremely rare in my
|
| 18 | experience that they actually explicitly say that. So,
|
| 19 | you are going to be proceeding at that point under a
|
| 20 | third-party beneficiary theory, and a third-party
|
| 21 | beneficiary theory will vary a lot with state law. So,
|
| 22 | in that sense I agree with George that it is entirely
|
| 23 | possible that the contractual remedy will not exist.
|
| 24 | MR. DAGEN: A couple of panelists I think
|
| 25 | mentioned the notion that the regular false advertising |
100
| 1 | sort of claim would be on the lesser end of the
|
| 2 | perspective. I wanted to try to juxtapose that with the
|
| 3 | standard-setting discussion that you were having, which
|
| 4 | was let's say you have a misrepresentation not about IP
|
| 5 | but something else within the standard-setting
|
| 6 | organization. There was a case involving Heary brothers
|
| 7 | a long time ago where there was an allegation, I
|
| 8 | believe, similar to an Allied Tube sort of thing with
|
| 9 | packing except involving misrepresentations about an
|
| 10 | alternative technology that was to be accepted or
|
| 11 | proposed for an alternative within the SSO.
|
| 12 | Where do you think that sort of
|
| 13 | misrepresentation more or less similar to the false
|
| 14 | advertising I think that you were talking about, where
|
| 15 | would that fall, if you have any thoughts on that?
|
| 16 | Anybody?
|
| 17 | DR. McAFEE: Theoretically, it should not
|
| 18 | actually make any difference. If I establish my
|
| 19 | technology as the standard by claiming that the
|
| 20 | alternative technology sets the atmosphere on fire and
|
| 21 | burns up the earth, it is not -- and that is fraud --
|
| 22 | that is not true, then it has had exactly the same
|
| 23 | effect. On the other hand, it seems much less likely
|
| 24 | that in reality you are going to be able to pull that
|
| 25 | off, because by and large, the standard-setting |
101
| 1 | organizations are composed of people who know technology
|
| 2 | pretty well, and so your ability to impugn alternative
|
| 3 | technologies seems much more limited than your ability
|
| 4 | to keep secret, for example, that you have patents.
|
| 5 | MR. OHANA: There are cases, and I am thinking
|
| 6 | of the Schachar case in the Seventh Circuit, where, if I
|
| 7 | remember the case right, there was an allegation that
|
| 8 | there was a misrepresentation made to a standards body,
|
| 9 | and I think the response of the Seventh Circuit was that
|
| 10 | the answer to bad speech is more correct speech, and I
|
| 11 | would tend to agree with that. Those cases are not
|
| 12 | going to impose a high risk of durable competitive harm
|
| 13 | and therefore are unlikely to require the intervention
|
| 14 | of antitrust agencies or courts.
|
| 15 | MS. CREIGHTON: I thought the Commission was
|
| 16 | right in Rambus in focusing on the ability of the
|
| 17 | representation to be adequately -- both that its -- both
|
| 18 | public and rebuttable, I guess, in the sense of I think
|
| 19 | they were focused in particular on collaborative
|
| 20 | ventures where there's less ability to ferret out people
|
| 21 | where it might be making misrepresentations, but they
|
| 22 | were trying, I think, to be getting at this point about
|
| 23 | is it something that can be responded to with the
|
| 24 | contrasting speech.
|
| 25 | So, if I could change your hypothetical, for |
102
| 1 | example, suppose the misrepresentation was that each and
|
| 2 | every member of the standard-setting organization was
|
| 3 | voting based on sort of independent assessment of the
|
| 4 | technology, but, in fact, I have gone around and paid
|
| 5 | off everybody to vote my way, so there is a
|
| 6 | representation that everyone is voting unilaterally,
|
| 7 | and, in fact, that is not true. It has been stacked.
|
| 8 | It seems to me like that misrepresentation poses
|
| 9 | the same kind of difficult-to-get-at or ferret-out
|
| 10 | problem that misrepresentations about IP do, but they
|
| 11 | would be quite different from saying you should not use
|
| 12 | that guy's technology because it is bad and that guy is
|
| 13 | right there and he can counter.
|
| 14 | MR. CARY: Having set up the continuum and
|
| 15 | putting that kind of conduct at one end, now let me
|
| 16 | retract just a little bit, because I do think that there
|
| 17 | are environments where sowing confusion through false
|
| 18 | representations can, in fact, be an antitrust violation.
|
| 19 | I would not say that it does not exist, and I am
|
| 20 | reminded of the good old days of pop-up windows where
|
| 21 | people who were trying to create applications software
|
| 22 | that ran on particular operating system platforms would
|
| 23 | find that when somebody went to activate that
|
| 24 | application program, a little screen would pop up
|
| 25 | saying, "you are about to go into unchartered territory, |
103
| 1 | and we cannot guarantee that your computer will not blow
|
| 2 | up if you press the button."
|
| 3 | There are examples where that kind of activity
|
| 4 | causes consumers, who are not expert technicians, to
|
| 5 | worry about using alternative software which might, if
|
| 6 | it were allowed to grow and expand, reduce an
|
| 7 | application barrier to entry and result in more
|
| 8 | competition to the operating system. I would not say
|
| 9 | that as a matter of law one should not be allowed to
|
| 10 | pursue those claims in a well-pled complaint and beyond
|
| 11 | summary judgment if there are facts to be litigated
|
| 12 | about whether that kind of activity does, in fact,
|
| 13 | retard the growth of competing technologies.
|
| 14 | DR. BROCKMEYER: Well, yeah, I want to agree
|
| 15 | with what George just said, and we need to be a little
|
| 16 | careful, because while I agree also with what Gil said,
|
| 17 | that often false advertising or false statements may
|
| 18 | well be -- again, continuing to use the scale here -- at
|
| 19 | very much the low end of the scale, I do not believe we
|
| 20 | should fall victim to even possibly absolutist language,
|
| 21 | which one of the cases that we looked at was a Judge
|
| 22 | Easterbrook decision involving Culligan, where he has a
|
| 23 | fairly direct sentence that says commercial speech can
|
| 24 | never be the basis of a Section 2 claim.
|
| 25 | I believe that is wrong, and indeed, to go back |
104
| 1 | to the quotation from Judge Ginsburg that George read at
|
| 2 | the end of his presentation I think has it right, which
|
| 3 | is, yeah, we need to look at the context of the
|
| 4 | circumstances where the commercial speech or the
|
| 5 | misleading statements are made and then measure the
|
| 6 | effect of that in the context of the market in which it
|
| 7 | is made.
|
| 8 | MR. OHANA: I would agree with that. I would
|
| 9 | just point out that in the context of ETSI section
|
| 10 | consensus-based broad participation standard-setting, it
|
| 11 | seems to me that the likelihood that a disparaging
|
| 12 | statement by the proponent of one technology about
|
| 13 | another technology is very unlikely to have competitive
|
| 14 | harm, because there are going to be a lot of other
|
| 15 | participants who are going to be eagerly awaiting the
|
| 16 | response from the proponent of the criticized
|
| 17 | technology, and there is going to be a discussion of it,
|
| 18 | and in that sense, I think the likelihood of competitive
|
| 19 | harm is very low.
|
| 20 | What I would point to in the example that George
|
| 21 | gave, which actually I had to look at when I was at the
|
| 22 | Antitrust Division, because I think it involved a
|
| 23 | company in the Pacific Northwest and the Windows
|
| 24 | operating system, is that what was very interesting
|
| 25 | about that is that it was actually used only in the beta |
105
| 1 | of I think it was Windows 3 or Windows 3.1, and what was
|
| 2 | sort of interesting is that Microsoft then pulled it
|
| 3 | when they actually released the operating system.
|
| 4 | The argument from the complainants was that the
|
| 5 | damage had been done, because obviously the beta test
|
| 6 | was distributed to a lot of kind of key influencers of
|
| 7 | the technology industry who were then going to write
|
| 8 | articles, create demand for the product, knowing that
|
| 9 | DRDOS, at least according to Microsoft, cannot work.
|
| 10 | That might be a context in which responsive speech may
|
| 11 | not be effective, because it has to happen in a very
|
| 12 | short time period in which a lot of demand is going to
|
| 13 | be set in a product market that is very subject to
|
| 14 | tipping, which I guess goes to Michael's point that the
|
| 15 | underlying facts matter a lot.
|
| 16 | MS. CREIGHTON: Another fact pattern that might
|
| 17 | be worth throwing out there at some point would be in
|
| 18 | the context of something that cannot be responded to
|
| 19 | effectively potentially with responsive speech or at
|
| 20 | least some party is vaporware, saying you have got your
|
| 21 | product coming when, in fact, it is not. So, that is a
|
| 22 | deceptive statement not readily correctable.
|
| 23 | I think Preston and Richard probably know the
|
| 24 | literature better than I do, but I think Farrell,
|
| 25 | Sloaner and others have written some articles about at |
106
| 1 | least in tipping industries the potential for such
|
| 2 | statements to have anticompetitive long-term effects.
|
| 3 | DR. ROZEK: I think part of the discussion has
|
| 4 | to involve the sophistication of the buyer. If you are
|
| 5 | making statements to a buyer about a competing
|
| 6 | technology, the buyer has to be able to assess those
|
| 7 | statements. It may not be in every case that they can
|
| 8 | do that instantaneously. It may be a statement about
|
| 9 | reliability of the product after it is being used for
|
| 10 | two years. You would not know if that statement is true
|
| 11 | or false up front. You may have to spend a lot of money
|
| 12 | to buy the machine, let's say a medical device, a
|
| 13 | lithotripter, for example, something you have to spend a
|
| 14 | lot of money, you would not know about the reliability
|
| 15 | until after you spent the money, put it in place,
|
| 16 | trained your workers and used it for a period of time.
|
| 17 | Not all people can make those kinds of assessments.
|
| 18 | So, I think underlying all of this in the
|
| 19 | standard-setting process, in the false advertising
|
| 20 | cases, you really have to conduct a rule of reason
|
| 21 | analysis. You have to think about the sophistication of
|
| 22 | the buyers and their ability to interpret the
|
| 23 | information in a cost-effective way, without having to
|
| 24 | make a purchase and wait two years or so to determine if
|
| 25 | the machine is going to break down or be reliable, for |
107
| 1 | example.
|
| 2 | DR. McAFEE: I agree with that completely. In
|
| 3 | fact, standard-setting organizations are unlikely to be
|
| 4 | a place where misleading statements of that kind are
|
| 5 | going to last. They tend to have a smaller number of
|
| 6 | very well-educated individuals, and it is more -- the
|
| 7 | vaporware, in particular, which is usually a gimmick to
|
| 8 | buy time while you try to develop a product so that
|
| 9 | another product does not become a standard.
|
| 10 | Microsoft made various promises about Windows CE
|
| 11 | as a way of trying to prevent Palm from becoming a
|
| 12 | standard, although in the end, Palm did become a
|
| 13 | standard. It did not -- the vaporware promises were not
|
| 14 | actually effective in that case. But there, that is a
|
| 15 | much more likely thing. We will eventually support
|
| 16 | this, just wait another few months, and that may be
|
| 17 | enough to buy time to prevent a competitor from entering
|
| 18 | the market.
|
| 19 | MR. DAGEN: If we could maybe put up a few of
|
| 20 | our propositions for discussion, first, slide number 2
|
| 21 | states, "Merely because a particular practice might be
|
| 22 | actionable under tort law does not preclude an action
|
| 23 | under the antitrust laws as well."
|
| 24 | I think this has been discussed a fair amount
|
| 25 | today. Is there -- I heard a lot of consensus on this, |
108
| 1 | but I wanted to know if anybody had any views contrary
|
| 2 | to that view or proposition.
|
| 3 | MR. OHANA: I do not know if it is contrary, but
|
| 4 | let me just offer what I hope is an exacerbation. If
|
| 5 | you look at Trinko, one of the facts in Trinko is that
|
| 6 | the conduct that Bell Atlantic was accused of was in
|
| 7 | parallel the subject of an FCC regulatory proceeding
|
| 8 | that resulted in the payment by Bell Atlantic of fines
|
| 9 | to the FCC, and there is language in the opinion, if I
|
| 10 | recall, that says that essentially where you have got a
|
| 11 | regulatory system and the regulatory system is intended
|
| 12 | to vindicate competition, the existence of the
|
| 13 | regulatory system matters relative to the antitrust
|
| 14 | analysis.
|
| 15 | Then you get this quote from Conwood, and I will
|
| 16 | not try to reconcile the two except to note that I think
|
| 17 | there is a tension there.
|
| 18 | MR. DAGEN: Well, given -- go ahead, Susan.
|
| 19 | MS. CREIGHTON: Though I think maybe the way to
|
| 20 | reconcile the tension was -- as I recall, Trinko said
|
| 21 | where there is another comprehensive regulatory scheme
|
| 22 | whose purpose is to promote competition --
|
| 23 | MR. OHANA: Exactly.
|
| 24 | MS. CREIGHTON: -- and that is a pretty
|
| 25 | important difference. |
109
| 1 | MR. DAGEN: Go ahead.
|
| 2 | MR. WELLFORD: We have already covered the law
|
| 3 | of contract a little bit, but let me talk about the law
|
| 4 | of fraud and maybe some other areas. These areas of --
|
| 5 | is developed in the common law over a very long period
|
| 6 | of time as the collective judgments of the courts, the
|
| 7 | common law courts anyway, has been that there is some
|
| 8 | necessity to apply heightened pleading standards or
|
| 9 | specialized pleading standards to them.
|
| 10 | For example, in the law of fraud, you have
|
| 11 | Federal Rule 9 and 9(B), which is the rule of
|
| 12 | specificity, the rule to require justifying reliance,
|
| 13 | and the law of defamation or misleading statements about
|
| 14 | individuals in that area. You have the Supreme Court's
|
| 15 | New York Times recklessness standard for defamation.
|
| 16 | Are we at all concerned that imposing Section 2
|
| 17 | liability, which very clearly has regular pleading
|
| 18 | standards, regular Rule 8, is at all going to be an
|
| 19 | end-run around any of those established doctrines, and
|
| 20 | does that indicate that either we may be off balance
|
| 21 | with Section 2 liability or we should have Section 2
|
| 22 | liability but apply some different pleading standards to
|
| 23 | try to vindicate those same concerns?
|
| 24 | DR. BROCKMEYER: Well, let me respond first, and
|
| 25 | somebody can probably tell me I am dead wrong, but I |
110
| 1 | believe, for example, in Walker Process, if you plead a
|
| 2 | Section 2 claim based on Walker Process, you are subject
|
| 3 | to Rule 9, and so you are going to have to plead with
|
| 4 | specificity, I think in the case of Walker Process and
|
| 5 | maybe in the case also of inequitable conduct, such that
|
| 6 | I really wonder whether Rule 9 is already coming into
|
| 7 | play when you need the heightened pleading standard when
|
| 8 | fraud is the predicate act for the Section 2 claim.
|
| 9 | MR. CARY: I guess I would respond that the
|
| 10 | typical kinds of requirements under Rule 9 are not
|
| 11 | ordinarily the kind that will not be able to be met in
|
| 12 | an antitrust case of this kind. I mean, it simply asks
|
| 13 | you to identify the kinds of statements that were made
|
| 14 | and to whom they were made, and so in the
|
| 15 | standard-setting context, it would be a statement that
|
| 16 | you would agree to license on FRAND terms, for example,
|
| 17 | that you did not intend to comply with or that you
|
| 18 | represented that there were not patents when, in fact,
|
| 19 | after the fact, you revealed the patents. The so-called
|
| 20 | heightened pleading requirement I do not think is all
|
| 21 | that heightened in this context.
|
| 22 | I think in terms of the recklessness element,
|
| 23 | there might be some room for divergence for the reasons
|
| 24 | that Gil described, that the thrust of the matter, the
|
| 25 | crux of the matter in the antitrust case is the |
111
| 1 | exploitation of market power, not the niceties of the
|
| 2 | precise statements that were made, and I think in the
|
| 3 | standard-setting context, especially one where you are a
|
| 4 | member of the body that is establishing the standard, I
|
| 5 | do not think there is scope for recklessness and then
|
| 6 | exploitation of the benefits of that recklessness after
|
| 7 | the fact.
|
| 8 | So, maybe there is a divergence there, and maybe
|
| 9 | there is also a divergence with respect to those states
|
| 10 | that have imposed a clear and convincing standard on
|
| 11 | fraud allegations, which is by no means the majority of
|
| 12 | states, but there are some.
|
| 13 | Again, I would say that since the crux of the
|
| 14 | matter is the exploitation rather than the deception
|
| 15 | that a clear and convincing standard would not have a
|
| 16 | place in an antitrust case, whereas it might if what you
|
| 17 | are talking about is fraud.
|
| 18 | MR. DAGEN: Slide 4.
|
| 19 | Given what we have just talked about in terms of
|
| 20 | the use or the nonpreclusive effect of the actions under
|
| 21 | contract or tort compared to an antitrust case, I was
|
| 22 | wondering if anybody had any thoughts about the issue
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| 23 | raised in Trinko about the cost of false positives. I
|
| 24 | know Susan talked about it a little, I guess several
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| 25 | panelists talked about it a little, about it not being |
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| 1 | as significant a concern with respect to
|
| 2 | misrepresentations, but I was wondering if the panel had
|
| 3 | any additional thoughts on that question.
|
| 4 | DR. McAFEE: I think one issue that has been
|
| 5 | brought up is that while it is true that we do not have
|
| 6 | to worry about chilling misleading statements, that is,
|
| 7 | we are pretty happy to chill as many misleading
|
| 8 | statements as we can, it was also brought up that there
|
| 9 | is a fair bit of confusion among engineers, in
|
| 10 | particular, about just what the antitrust laws entail
|
| 11 | and that the threat of antitrust actions actually scare
|
| 12 | the engineers a lot, and I think maybe the middle ground
|
| 13 | here is to provide fairly concrete guidance as to what
|
| 14 | is allowed and what is not so that we reduce that,
|
| 15 | because it would actually be somewhat of a disaster if
|
| 16 | companies instead of joining standard-setting
|
| 17 | organizations said, well, we are just going to have our
|
| 18 | own standard, let them fight it out in the marketplace,
|
| 19 | which guarantees that the standard that comes out is
|
| 20 | proprietary.
|
| 21 | We are actually quite happy, it is quite
|
| 22 | procompetitive, to have standards that are practiced by
|
| 23 | many companies; that is, common standards that are
|
| 24 | practiced by many companies. If you thought about all
|
| 25 | batteries -- think about your digital camera, which |
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| 1 | probably has a proprietary battery. That is a much more
|
| 2 | expensive proposition than if you have double A
|
| 3 | batteries because of the standard associated and
|
| 4 | multiple firms practicing it. So, we do not want to
|
| 5 | actually have that harm the open standards, and, in
|
| 6 | fact, we want to make sure that what we do with Section
|
| 7 | 2 is encouraging open standards, not discouraging it.
|
| 8 | MS. CREIGHTON: I am probably just repeating
|
| 9 | what I have said before. I think maybe the one area
|
| 10 | where you would be concerned about false positives here
|
| 11 | particularly would be chilling advertising unduly,
|
| 12 | because that obviously is a positive. I agree with --
|
| 13 | who was it -- Michael who made the comment that we are
|
| 14 | probably not concerned with chilling having racks pulled
|
| 15 | out of the shelves, you know, and we would not be unduly
|
| 16 | concerned about chilling blowing up a competitor's
|
| 17 | factory, and there is all kinds of conduct we probably
|
| 18 | would not be too concerned about chilling.
|
| 19 | I guess more generally, on the question of this
|
| 20 | specter that is haunting Europe of sort of -- specter
|
| 21 | haunting the United States of unduly broadening Section
|
| 22 | 2 liability, you know, it is not like we have got a huge
|
| 23 | number of cases here we are talking about where people
|
| 24 | have taken a fraud claim and then tried to turn it into
|
| 25 | an antitrust claim. We have got a handful, and I am not |
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| 1 | even sure that it is very likely that we would see very
|
| 2 | many, because usually they have to have some kind of
|
| 3 | fraudulent relationship, you have to have a relationship
|
| 4 | of trust and confidence, and the circumstances in which
|
| 5 | companies are going to be engaging in that kind of
|
| 6 | relationship would seem to be relatively discrete.
|
| 7 | So, I guess while I agree with the Trinko
|
| 8 | statement in general, other than advertising, I am not
|
| 9 | sure that I see a big issue with chilling.
|
| 10 | MR. CARY: I guess that brings to mind one of
|
| 11 | the points that Preston made previously about lawyers
|
| 12 | wanting to convert contract cases into antitrust cases.
|
| 13 | It seems to me that in this regard, when you are talking
|
| 14 | about allegations that essentially sound in fraud,
|
| 15 | taking that and converting it to an antitrust case is
|
| 16 | not something you would do as a matter of course in any
|
| 17 | event.
|
| 18 | First, you would still have to prove the fraud,
|
| 19 | maybe not to a clear and convincing element, but then
|
| 20 | you would also have to prove the other elements of an
|
| 21 | antitrust case, which just expands your burden, and a
|
| 22 | fraud claim is suitable for punitive damages. So,
|
| 23 | limiting yourself to treble damages when you could get
|
| 24 | punitives in a fraud case, I am not so sure that that is
|
| 25 | necessarily the inclination most plaintiffs' lawyers |
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| 1 | would take.
|
| 2 | I think what that points out, again, is that
|
| 3 | there is a different role for the antitrust law than
|
| 4 | there is for the private law of tort or the private law
|
| 5 | of contract in this setting.
|
| 6 | DR. BROCKMEYER: Yeah, I want to make a quick
|
| 7 | comment about what Preston said about engineers not
|
| 8 | understanding the antitrust laws, and over time it was
|
| 9 | not engineers, it was someone else, some other
|
| 10 | occupation who does not understand the antitrust laws,
|
| 11 | and I am not particularly sympathetic with the engineers
|
| 12 | in that setting in the sense that the antitrust laws are
|
| 13 | obviously an important segment of our body of law, and
|
| 14 | in the engineer's development of a product or technology
|
| 15 | or whatever, the engineer has to come to an
|
| 16 | understanding with the assistance of counsel or
|
| 17 | otherwise, and we proceed. Antitrust obviously at times
|
| 18 | maybe we think has gone off course, but hopefully we
|
| 19 | bring it back on course. So, I must say, I am not
|
| 20 | particularly sympathetic to engineers that are sitting
|
| 21 | out there and worrying about the antitrust laws.
|
| 22 | DR. McAFEE: All right, I am going to make the
|
| 23 | counter case, because what we are asking engineers to do
|
| 24 | in the standard-setting situation actually flirts with
|
| 25 | directly violating the antitrust laws. So, that is to |
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| 1 | say, we are asking competitors to get together and set a
|
| 2 | standard that they are all going to practice. So, there
|
| 3 | is a sense in which they are already exposed to risk,
|
| 4 | and as a society, we do not like the alternative,
|
| 5 | because the alternative is the companies never get
|
| 6 | together, they each promote different standards that are
|
| 7 | not compatible, and the market chooses one, much like is
|
| 8 | happening with DVDs right now.
|
| 9 | We have multiple standards. The market chooses
|
| 10 | one of them -- actually, does not matter whether you
|
| 11 | think about old DVDs where you had plus or minus R or
|
| 12 | new DVDs where you have HD and Blu-ray. The market will
|
| 13 | choose one that will be proprietary. That is bad for
|
| 14 | society. We would be better off as a society if we have
|
| 15 | a single standard that everyone agreed on, a useful
|
| 16 | standard that all of the companies get to practice.
|
| 17 | And so unlike other cases of antitrust law where
|
| 18 | we said these are the laws, you have to obey them, here
|
| 19 | we are asking firms to get together and do something,
|
| 20 | which certainly there is a phrase, "tickles the dragon's
|
| 21 | tail," and it certainly tickles the dragon's tail of
|
| 22 | antitrust law automatically just because the competitors
|
| 23 | are standing in the same room.
|
| 24 | So, I would argue, then, that it is incumbent on
|
| 25 | us as a society to actually give them instruction so |
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| 1 | that they do not just say, well, we are just not going
|
| 2 | to go down that road. We are going to stay in our own
|
| 3 | labs and never meet, because those meetings do actually
|
| 4 | result in standards that are good for society.
|
| 5 | MR. OHANA: I agree with Preston. I would just
|
| 6 | make the point that over-emphasis on antitrust risk and
|
| 7 | the idea that in some sense standards development is so
|
| 8 | fraught that engineers cannot ask probing questions
|
| 9 | about whether technology is patented, how much it will
|
| 10 | cost to practice, et cetera, creates the risk of
|
| 11 | significant inefficiencies as well, and you have to find
|
| 12 | a balance here between recognizing the potential for
|
| 13 | Section 1 problems in standard-setting and facilitating
|
| 14 | the risk of Section 2 problems.
|
| 15 | DR. McAFEE: I want to make an unrelated remark
|
| 16 | on something that Susan has said several times. She has
|
| 17 | referred to advertising as a good. This is -- I would
|
| 18 | say that it is actually an emerging consensus among
|
| 19 | economists, but it is hardly something -- if you went
|
| 20 | back 15 years and polled economists, you probably would
|
| 21 | not find 50 percent agreeing with that, although that
|
| 22 | number has grown dramatically, so it is actually -- and
|
| 23 | sometimes it is very cutting edge for the FTC to be
|
| 24 | promoting that as its view, is that advertising is
|
| 25 | itself a good. Everyone understood that informative |
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| 1 | advertising is a good, but advertising which is not
|
| 2 | directly informative, some sort of brand positioning
|
| 3 | advertising and that kind of thing, to view that as a
|
| 4 | good is actually very -- looks to the future.
|
| 5 | An example of this, I think perhaps the most
|
| 6 | extreme example, is playground equipment. There are
|
| 7 | playground equipment companies that actually advertise
|
| 8 | that their rivals' products -- and they name them --
|
| 9 | kill children. Now, this is advertising we would not
|
| 10 | want to chill, whether it is -- well, if it is false
|
| 11 | obviously we would like to chill it, but on the other
|
| 12 | hand, you have got to have -- you have to view that as
|
| 13 | sort of a risky ad, especially because there is a sense
|
| 14 | in which all playground equipment kills children in the
|
| 15 | sense that there is stuff that you can do that will kill
|
| 16 | you if you fall off it, for example, not used as
|
| 17 | directed. This is -- the advertising here -- so,
|
| 18 | advertising in the playground equipment area is
|
| 19 | particularly extreme, and it is actually worth going and
|
| 20 | getting the brochures. It is a pretty entertaining
|
| 21 | example.
|
| 22 | MR. DAGEN: That actually reminds me of an FTC
|
| 23 | consent that we had a few years ago which involved
|
| 24 | bullet-proof vest manufacturers having an agreement not
|
| 25 | to engage in any sort of comparative advertising, so |
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| 1 | they -- don't tell them -- we won't tell them yours
|
| 2 | fails if you don't tell them ours fails. Similar to the
|
| 3 | playground equipment in terms of mortality rates, I
|
| 4 | think.
|
| 5 | MR. WELLFORD: Let me ask one question, which is
|
| 6 | taking it outside the standard-setting context, which is
|
| 7 | probably special, if misleading conduct is such an
|
| 8 | anticompetitive problem, why is it so absolutely common
|
| 9 | between rivals in industries? And two examples I'll
|
| 10 | make, and then you can react -- anyone, I will throw
|
| 11 | this to Susan first perhaps -- as to whether there would
|
| 12 | be necessarily an anticompetitive problem raised.
|
| 13 | One is competitors are attempting to discover
|
| 14 | your trade secrets by aggressive but legal means, and
|
| 15 | your response is to start putting out misinformation so
|
| 16 | that they will not. That is an extremely common fact
|
| 17 | pattern. Does that raise concerns if they are a
|
| 18 | dominant competitor? Is that part of the rough and
|
| 19 | tumble of competition?
|
| 20 | The other is if you are a dominant maker of a
|
| 21 | particular product, are you permitted to do what lots of
|
| 22 | product makers do, Sony with the PS3 or any variety of
|
| 23 | car makers have done this, put out fake test products in
|
| 24 | the market and do fake tests with consumer groups in the
|
| 25 | hopes that your rivals will find out about the fake |
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| 1 | tests and then try to design towards that fake thing
|
| 2 | when you have got something real?
|
| 3 | If you are a dominant competitor, do either of
|
| 4 | those raise concerns in the fact that they are common
|
| 5 | does not necessarily make them okay, as we have seen in
|
| 6 | the cartel area?
|
| 7 | MS. CREIGHTON: I guess I am having a hard time
|
| 8 | seeing how either would be likely to create and maintain
|
| 9 | durable market power, which I hope I was clear about,
|
| 10 | but I think that that really is the crux of -- the
|
| 11 | question is, if we have inefficient conduct that we
|
| 12 | believe causes durable market power, that is what we are
|
| 13 | trying to get at, and so we are not -- and, in fact,
|
| 14 | part of my point had been we are not trying to make
|
| 15 | torts a predicate act for antitrust. In fact, that is
|
| 16 | exactly the wrong way to think about it.
|
| 17 | So, the fact that this is conduct that you may
|
| 18 | or may not like or might or might not be good, unless I
|
| 19 | could see some way in which it was likely to be creating
|
| 20 | durable market power, I would not care from an antitrust
|
| 21 | perspective.
|
| 22 | MR. DAGEN: Just following up on Hill's question
|
| 23 | then, the mere fact that it raises your rivals' costs in
|
| 24 | this context would not be sufficient in your mind? They
|
| 25 | are either going down the wrong path I think was -- Hill |
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| 1 | was suggesting or they have to counter, take some
|
| 2 | counter -- so it raises their costs in the short run
|
| 3 | potentially.
|
| 4 | DR. McAFEE: I would actually object to that as
|
| 5 | being characterized as raising rivals' costs.
|
| 6 | MR. DAGEN: Okay.
|
| 7 | DR. McAFEE: The rivals who have actually chosen
|
| 8 | to investigate whatever they investigate, putting out,
|
| 9 | you know, memos that say we are investigating this, the
|
| 10 | rivals are free not to follow that, and, in fact, that
|
| 11 | is -- I would say generally, the rivals are the best
|
| 12 | informed. The general public is much more likely to be
|
| 13 | misled, which is usually damaging to the originator.
|
| 14 | So, if Sony says, well, we are going to deliver this,
|
| 15 | and then they do not, that is harmful to Sony, not so
|
| 16 | much to Microsoft.
|
| 17 | MR. DAGEN: Why don't we head to slide 3. I
|
| 18 | think we have had a lot of discussion about a lot of
|
| 19 | these topics, and that was the purpose of this panel.
|
| 20 | So, slide 3, "The jury could have found that --" this is
|
| 21 | from Conwood -- "that USTC maintained its monopoly power
|
| 22 | by engaging in the challenged conduct," and I would like
|
| 23 | to focus this on causation issues.
|
| 24 | So, what kind of causal connection must be shown
|
| 25 | between misleading conduct and the creation of or |
122
| 1 | preservation of monopoly power? I think it was -- well,
|
| 2 | Michael or Gil, one of them talked about what you would
|
| 3 | have to show, and we would like to consider that issue a
|
| 4 | little more.
|
| 5 | DR. BROCKMEYER: Well, let me go first. Yeah,
|
| 6 | basically what I had said was that you would need to
|
| 7 | show -- I used the word institutional, that is, getting
|
| 8 | away from the mistakes or the rogue district manager or
|
| 9 | whatever, that is, that it was a conscious decision that
|
| 10 | was corporate policy.
|
| 11 | Secondly, that it was pervasive, and I thought a
|
| 12 | little bit about how I would measure pervasive, and I
|
| 13 | think I would -- what I suggested on the slide is
|
| 14 | relative to the relevant geographic market. So, the
|
| 15 | question is how much was there.
|
| 16 | And then finally, ultimately, that it harmed the
|
| 17 | competitive process, that somehow, in the case of
|
| 18 | Conwood, that the throwing away of the racks and so on
|
| 19 | and so forth harmed the competitive process among
|
| 20 | Conwood and U.S. Tobacco.
|
| 21 | As I mentioned earlier, I think it is a classic
|
| 22 | case of what happens when you have private litigation in
|
| 23 | front of a jury in that I just think about it as myself,
|
| 24 | as I am sitting here, I am a juror and not an antitrust
|
| 25 | lawyer, and I sit there, and here I have got a |
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| 1 | monopolist who is undertaking these acts.
|
| 2 | Now, one key, of course, is I think you have to
|
| 3 | distinguish -- and the judge has to instruct the jury in
|
| 4 | a way to distinguish between what was deceptive or
|
| 5 | misleading and what was procompetitive. For example,
|
| 6 | responding to WalMart or whoever it was, the
|
| 7 | competition, to have a rack, or even being the category
|
| 8 | captain or whatever, you know, in and of itself, those
|
| 9 | are not necessarily deceptive at all, and it is
|
| 10 | important that the court, in instructing the jury,
|
| 11 | allowed the jury to sort that out, and, in fact, would
|
| 12 | have to.
|
| 13 | So, to me, again, as I said earlier, I think
|
| 14 | Conwood is just a classic case of a jury's reaction to
|
| 15 | the evidence presented.
|
| 16 | DR. McAFEE: This is also probably a good time
|
| 17 | to remember that the antitrust laws are designed to
|
| 18 | protect competition and not competitors and that that is
|
| 19 | an easy mistake for a jury to make, because it is a
|
| 20 | somewhat subtle distinction, but that deceptive act
|
| 21 | should be viewed in that light, is does this actually
|
| 22 | affect competition in the industry or does this affect
|
| 23 | just one competitor in the industry.
|
| 24 | MR. DAGEN: I think one of the allegations in
|
| 25 | Conwood was that as category manager, they were |
124
| 1 | supplying false information about their sales and their
|
| 2 | competitors' sales, and there was some talk about
|
| 3 | whether the information maybe was in public information,
|
| 4 | easily rebuttable.
|
| 5 | Does anybody have any sense of where that sort
|
| 6 | of conversation would occur, where on the line that
|
| 7 | would be?
|
| 8 | DR. BROCKMEYER: Well, one -- I hate to use this
|
| 9 | word, but when I thought about that -- and I teach
|
| 10 | Conwood in my antitrust class, okay, I like Conwood for
|
| 11 | teaching students, and the word that comes to my mind --
|
| 12 | I hate to use it -- is whether, in fact, U.S. Tobacco
|
| 13 | took on I am going to say fiduciary responsibility when
|
| 14 | it became the category captain to provide that
|
| 15 | information. Yeah, the person from Kroeger or whatever
|
| 16 | said, I made my own decision, and U.S. Tobacco was not
|
| 17 | going to sway me, but the point being is that once U.S.
|
| 18 | Tobacco took on those responsibilities, I think it had a
|
| 19 | bit of a higher standard of conduct than it would
|
| 20 | otherwise have as a competitor going in and pitching
|
| 21 | information, because it had committed to Kroeger or
|
| 22 | WalMart or whomever to provide information not only
|
| 23 | about itself, but about the competition as well, in a
|
| 24 | role different than being just a competitor in the
|
| 25 | market. |
125
| 1 | MR. OHANA: Let me maybe disagree with that a
|
| 2 | little bit having advised on category management issues
|
| 3 | over time. You always tell your clients when they have
|
| 4 | been appointed, annointed, category captain that they
|
| 5 | should provide truthful information to the retailer, but
|
| 6 | it seems to me that the retailer knows the biases of the
|
| 7 | category captain, that it is going to design a planogram
|
| 8 | that promotes its products, and if you think that the
|
| 9 | incentives of the retailer in any way parallel the
|
| 10 | consumer welfare, then the idea that the dominant
|
| 11 | company that is appointed category captain has some kind
|
| 12 | of special obligation to be truthful seems odd to me.
|
| 13 | This is not the context like the ones the FTC
|
| 14 | identified in the Rambus case where you are talking
|
| 15 | about a cooperative enterprise. There is a fierce
|
| 16 | competition for shelf space. Everybody knows what the
|
| 17 | biases of category captain are, and if the competitors
|
| 18 | ever feel that they are being discriminated against by
|
| 19 | the behavior of the category captain filtered through
|
| 20 | the retailer, they know Kroeger's phone number.
|
| 21 | MR. DAGEN: In terms of causation, Judge
|
| 22 | Easterbrook in Sanderson distinguishes cases from
|
| 23 | Hydrolevel and says Hydrolevel had an enforcement
|
| 24 | mechanism by virtue of codes being adopted based on the
|
| 25 | conduct in the standard-setting organization, and he |
126
| 1 | says in Sanderson there is just basically speech. Does
|
| 2 | there have to be an enforcement mechanism of some sort
|
| 3 | in either government or standards or some other means
|
| 4 | before the requisite causation can be shown in one of
|
| 5 | these misrepresentation cases?
|
| 6 | MS. CREIGHTON: I guess I'd say no and cite U.S.
|
| 7 | v. Microsoft. In the diluted Java, for example, there
|
| 8 | was no enforcement mechanism. It was cooperative in the
|
| 9 | sense that the standard-setting process is cooperative,
|
| 10 | but the representation was come build to Microsoft Java
|
| 11 | because all the applications that you build will be
|
| 12 | interoperable with Sun's Java, and people had no reason
|
| 13 | to suspect that those representations were not true, so
|
| 14 | they went ahead and built applications using Microsoft's
|
| 15 | version of Java and then discovered that, lo and behold,
|
| 16 | they had just collectively created a library of programs
|
| 17 | that would only run on Microsoft. So, there was no
|
| 18 | enforcement mechanism there that I can identify other
|
| 19 | than the fact that it was a network market, but
|
| 20 | nonetheless, I think that that decision -- that the
|
| 21 | Justice Department was correct in pursuing that claim
|
| 22 | and the D.C. Circuit in upholding it.
|
| 23 | MR. CARY: It seems to me that the issue is
|
| 24 | durability, not enforcement, and the question is from
|
| 25 | what does that durability derive? Does it derive from |
127
| 1 | network effects, from existing monopoly and interfaces,
|
| 2 | does it derive from enforceability, does it derive from
|
| 3 | the incorporation of a standard? It could be any of
|
| 4 | those.
|
| 5 | MR. DAGEN: If we could go to slide 7, this
|
| 6 | states, "The Federal Trade Commission may consider
|
| 7 | public values beyond simply those enshrined in the
|
| 8 | letter or encompassed in the spirit of the antitrust
|
| 9 | laws." That is from Sperry and Hutchinson, 1972.
|
| 10 | So, one of the questions that arises in
|
| 11 | connection with this agency, the FTC, is whether Section
|
| 12 | 5 gives the Commission a different role to play in
|
| 13 | policing deceptive conduct than Section 2 of the Sherman
|
| 14 | Act.
|
| 15 | DR. ROZEK: One of the most difficult things to
|
| 16 | deal with is arbitrariness on the part of the antitrust
|
| 17 | agencies or any regulatory agency. If it is going to be
|
| 18 | difficult for both buyers and sellers to understand what
|
| 19 | the policies are going to be or the enforcement
|
| 20 | policies, just introducing some arbitrariness into the
|
| 21 | process, then I think there is a social cost to that.
|
| 22 | For example, one of the things that is very
|
| 23 | helpful in terms of enforcement of the antitrust laws
|
| 24 | are the Merger Guidelines. You have Guidelines that
|
| 25 | tell you how the antitrust agencies are going to look at |
128
| 1 | these things, and they follow those Guidelines. They
|
| 2 | have essentially become de facto the standard for doing
|
| 3 | competition analyses even in private cases.
|
| 4 | To the extent that there is a hidden agenda or
|
| 5 | there is a hidden policy trying to be achieved, laws are
|
| 6 | going to be applied in an arbitrary manner. I do not
|
| 7 | think that does a service to buyers or sellers or to
|
| 8 | firms or consumers.
|
| 9 | MR. DAGEN: We talked a little bit about treble
|
| 10 | damage actions. The other remedy often available is
|
| 11 | injunctive relief. Would that influence the standard
|
| 12 | that anyone would recommend as to what sort of conduct
|
| 13 | might be actionable, whether there is simply injunctive
|
| 14 | relief or whether there is treble damages also
|
| 15 | available?
|
| 16 | DR. BROCKMEYER: Is your question in the context
|
| 17 | of Section 5 or generally?
|
| 18 | MR. DAGEN: More generally.
|
| 19 | DR. BROCKMEYER: Okay.
|
| 20 | MR. OHANA: Bringing it back to the context of
|
| 21 | Section 5, I have the blessing and curse, as does Susan,
|
| 22 | of being a California admitted lawyer where we have the
|
| 23 | experience of private actions for injunctive relief
|
| 24 | under 17-200 recently, and I note this is a cautionary
|
| 25 | tale, narrowed significantly by state ballot referendum, |
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| 1 | and the pattern in those cases is that the fact that you
|
| 2 | can only get an injunction and not money damages did not
|
| 3 | inhibit the creativity of people in using that law for
|
| 4 | some truly bizarre ends.
|
| 5 | MR. DAGEN: Anybody else?
|
| 6 | DR. McAFEE: There has been a little boom in
|
| 7 | sending out cease and desist letters for spurious
|
| 8 | copyright violations, for example. So, if I mention a
|
| 9 | company's name and mention their product, they may send
|
| 10 | me a cease and desist letter saying you are not allowed
|
| 11 | to mention our name because it is a copyright or it is
|
| 12 | trademarked, and that seems to be a case where something
|
| 13 | beyond -- and these are not necessarily antitrust
|
| 14 | issues, but agency action beyond the promote the First
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| 15 | Amendment, for example, might be called for, and so
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| 16 | insofar as other laws have a bearing on this, you might
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| 17 | want to be selective about enforcement or go beyond.
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| 18 | That is, I am going to agree, at least in principle,
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| 19 | that going beyond the letter of the antitrust laws might
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| 20 | be actually desirable in some circumstances, especially
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| 21 | as technologies move very rapidly.
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| 22 | MS. CREIGHTON: And just going back to your
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| 23 | Section 5 point, I guess I would say that I think
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| 24 | inefficient conduct that causes durable market power is
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| 25 | actionable under Section 2, is actionable under Section |
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| 1 | 5, and I do not think we need to extend or should extend
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| 2 | Section 5 to go beyond that to reach other kinds of
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| 3 | conduct.
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| 4 | MR. CARY: I guess I would slightly disagree
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| 5 | with Gil also as a California admitted lawyer.
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| 6 | MR. OHANA: Oh, sorry.
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| 7 | MR. CARY: I think it does make a difference
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| 8 | that 17-200 is limited to injunctive relief in terms of
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| 9 | what kind of damage it can cause to pursue the more
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| 10 | frivolous claims. I think the ability to get a motion
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| 11 | to dismiss on the damage claims granted, leaving only a
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| 12 | 17-200 claim, is significant and to some degree I think
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| 13 | addresses some of the anticompetitive motives of
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| 14 | bringing antitrust litigation that Preston has
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| 15 | mentioned, and it leaves you in a position of simply
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| 16 | litigating before a judge and not a jury a novel theory,
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| 17 | which I do not think is quite so bad as facing the
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| 18 | barrel of treble damages.
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| 19 | MR. OHANA: This may be an area where the
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| 20 | perspective of inside and outside counsel may differ to
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| 21 | some degree. We do not enjoy 17-200 cases even though
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| 22 | there is no ultimate risk of damages because litigating
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| 23 | them is expensive, time-consuming and difficult, and
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| 24 | yes, it is somewhat better that there is no risk of
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| 25 | damages, let alone treble damages, at the end, but that |
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| 1 | does not make the conversation with your general counsel
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| 2 | over how much you have spent on what is a completely
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| 3 | baseless action any easier.
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| 4 | MR. CARY: One man's cost is another man's
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| 5 | revenue.
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| 6 | MR. OHANA: I guess that's right.
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| 7 | MR. DAGEN: Turning to a variation on the
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| 8 | subject, are there any safe harbors in the area of
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| 9 | misleading or deceptive conduct that the panel would
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| 10 | suggest or panelists?
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| 11 | While you are pondering that, I will pose the
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| 12 | follow-up, which is what about in specific conduct
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| 13 | areas, the context of SSOs or false advertising or
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| 14 | patent abuse?
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| 15 | MR. CARY: I have got one example. I would go
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| 16 | back to the sham litigation example. It would seem to
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| 17 | me that if you are within Federal Rule of Civil
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| 18 | Procedure 11, which requires a reasonable basis for the
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| 19 | pleading, that being sued as an antitrust defendant for
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| 20 | sham litigation ought to be dismissed as a matter of
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| 21 | law. There ought to be a safe harbor if you have met
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| 22 | appropriate pleading standards. There should not be a
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| 23 | heightened standard for what might constitute sham
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| 24 | litigation.
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| 25 | DR. McAFEE: What if it is 200 sham litigations? |
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| 1 | That is, it is not one, but we have sued 200
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| 2 | different -- so, I am thinking about the Recording
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| 3 | Industry Association of America. We have sued hundreds
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| 4 | of different defendants. So, we are doing it over and
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| 5 | over and over again. It is not clear to me that,
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| 6 | especially when it is against small defendants, that
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| 7 | there should be a safe harbor. I agree about one, but I
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| 8 | am not so sure I agree with many.
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| 9 | MR. CARY: Well, I think you are back to the
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| 10 | question of whether the lawsuit is reasonably calculated
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| 11 | to yield the result that you are seeking in the case or
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| 12 | whether it is calculated to reach some other result, and
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| 13 | I am not sure the number should make a difference if
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| 14 | each one of them independently would be deemed a
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| 15 | reasonable assertion of a copyright or a patent.
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| 16 | MR. OHANA: This is the first time anyone from
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| 17 | Silicon Valley defends the RIAA, but it seems to me if
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| 18 | they bring 200 cases against 200 accused copyright
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| 19 | infringers, those are all fair cases.
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| 20 | MS. CREIGHTON: I think what Preston is talking
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| 21 | about is the kind of case that would meet what is
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| 22 | referred to as the pattern exception to Noerr, where it
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| 23 | is filed without regard to whether it is true or not,
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| 24 | and so, you know, you are going to have a coin toss
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| 25 | chance of it being true or not, but -- actually I am |
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| 1 | blanking on the name of the Second Circuit case where
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| 2 | they challenged each and every satellite certificate.
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| 3 | MR. CARY: Right.
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| 4 | MS. CREIGHTON: Primetime. So, it seems to me
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| 5 | that if you could satisfy the pattern exception in
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| 6 | Noerr, that would also stand up in antitrust law.
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| 7 | MR. CARY: Potentially it does under current law
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| 8 | in the Second Circuit and perhaps in the Ninth Circuit,
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| 9 | but I am questioning whether it should, especially in
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| 10 | the case of intellectual property where one of the
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| 11 | requirements for protecting the intellectual property is
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| 12 | that you have zealously protected that intellectual
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| 13 | property. The idea that then you could be charged with
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| 14 | an antitrust violation for having done what the patent
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| 15 | law requires you to do or the copyright law requires you
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| 16 | to do is problematic, and I think the key goes back to
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| 17 | your predicate, which is "without regard to the merits."
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| 18 | There is a distinction between bringing a case
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| 19 | which satisfies Rule 11, because you have a case that is
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| 20 | reasonably litigable on the one hand; and one that you
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| 21 | bring with no basis, which would violate Rule 11, in
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| 22 | which case if it has the requisite competitive effect,
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| 23 | there should be an antitrust remedy.
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| 24 | DR. BROCKMEYER: George, I need to give a small
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| 25 | refinement to your point, and I am not disagreeing with |
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| 1 | you, but I am aware of circumstances where the initial
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| 2 | bringing of the suit met Rule 11, but during discovery,
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| 3 | it then, at that point during discovery, the plaintiff
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| 4 | learned that there was no basis for the suit such that
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| 5 | at that point then obviously if it pursues the case
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| 6 | after that, then I think there is an issue for sham
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| 7 | litigation. Now, whether that piece of litigation is
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| 8 | exclusionary, that I do not know, but I would not agree
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| 9 | that the safe harbor is, well, if you are okay at the
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| 10 | initial filing of the suit, you are okay, because,
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| 11 | again, of the circumstances I have discussed with you.
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| 12 | MR. CARY: Yeah, I think I recognize that
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| 13 | distinction, and I do not totally disagree with that. I
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| 14 | think it gets very complicated, though, because in that
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| 15 | context, now you are talking about work product and
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| 16 | attorney-client privileged communications, and it gets
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| 17 | very complicated to assess at what point you are
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| 18 | obligated to drop that kind of lawsuit.
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| 19 | DR. BROCKMEYER: Well, but the problem is in the
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| 20 | patent arena you may learn during discovery of the
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| 21 | fraud.
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| 22 | MR. CARY: Fair enough.
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| 23 | DR. BROCKMEYER: Okay?
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| 24 | MR. CARY: Yeah.
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| 25 | MS. CREIGHTON: I think I would probably |
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| 1 | disagree with you, George, about the adequacy of Rule 11
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| 2 | sufficiently to guard against that anticompetitive
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| 3 | effect, because I think what you are proposing -- well,
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| 4 | usually my understanding of Rule 11 is an objective
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| 5 | standard, and so if you file every lawsuit and then it
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| 6 | turns out half of them are meritless, you get half of
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| 7 | them dismissed, but you have still raised rivals' costs,
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| 8 | and that is just sort of the willy-nilly filing, and to
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| 9 | your earlier point about a judge being able to serve as
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| 10 | an adequate gate-keeper, I do not think a judge
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| 11 | typically can serve as an adequate gate-keeper to that
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| 12 | kind of pattern of filing.
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| 13 | DR. McAFEE: Gemstar is alleged to be an example
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| 14 | of that.
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| 15 | MR. DAGEN: In terms of a kind of the safe
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| 16 | harbor, there is a Sixth Circuit case involving
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| 17 | podiatrists which looked at a multipart test and said to
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| 18 | survive summary judgment on a Section 2 case, you have
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| 19 | to show at least that there is a factual dispute, that
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| 20 | the statements were clearly false, and two, that they
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| 21 | were difficult or costly for plaintiff to counter. Is
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| 22 | that something that panelists would agree with?
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| 23 | DR. BROCKMEYER: Well, the problem with that
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| 24 | decision was that the Sixth Circuit adopted what I
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| 25 | indicated in my slides we should not have, which is |
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| 1 | there was a rebuttable presumption, and George or
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| 2 | someone said this earlier, we are now getting somewhat
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| 3 | into procedural law. I do not think it is appropriate
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| 4 | to have the rebuttable presumption. So, in the first
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| 5 | instance, I would disagree with that case, and I think
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| 6 | they filed a Ninth Circuit case as well.
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| 7 | MR. DAGEN: Another statement in that case was
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| 8 | that there is no liability if the statements are simply
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| 9 | misleading as opposed -- and that court talks about
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| 10 | Matsushita and what we have talked about earlier with
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| 11 | Verizon and the danger of chilling procompetitive
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| 12 | conduct, and the Sixth Circuit is saying if it is simply
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| 13 | misleading, and I think they mean by that not
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| 14 | intentionally, if you cannot show from the beginning
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| 15 | that it was an intentional misrepresentation, but if it
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| 16 | is just a statement that turns out to mislead people,
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| 17 | then they would dismiss the case on those grounds.
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| 18 | MR. CARY: In the Walker Process context, that
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| 19 | kind of distinction is an important one. In patent
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| 20 | litigation, there is always something in the file,
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| 21 | especially if it is a complicated product deserving of a
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| 22 | patent, something in the file that one can point to as
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| 23 | being slightly irregular or perhaps not as articulate as
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| 24 | it might have been or using a term of art in a
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| 25 | particular way that is distinct from how some future |
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| 1 | juror might interpret that.
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| 2 | Those kinds of technical issues that may or may
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| 3 | not give rise to inequitable conduct, it seems to me
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| 4 | that the judge does have an obligation to keep those
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| 5 | kind of, quote unquote, "simply misleading statements"
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| 6 | away from a jury and that some greater showing should be
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| 7 | required before a Walker Process fraud allegation could
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| 8 | be sustained.
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| 9 | MS. CREIGHTON: I guess I would repeat what I
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| 10 | have said before, which is I think the -- sort of the
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| 11 | intent element that seems implicit there maybe is a bit
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| 12 | misleading. I keep -- this analogy may be more
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| 13 | confusing than helpful, but I have tended to think of
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| 14 | like opportunism in contract. If a taxi driver picks me
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| 15 | up at the airport and says, you know, ten bucks, and
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| 16 | then pulls away and, you know, two miles later pulls
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| 17 | over to the side of the road and says, you know, I will
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| 18 | either let you out here or it will be a hundred bucks,
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| 19 | is probably not that relevant to me whether he thought
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| 20 | about that at the time he picked me up or only after we
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| 21 | left the airport, you know, it is still robbery.
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| 22 | And so in the same way, I do not know that it
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| 23 | would have mattered to my analysis if a Microsoft said,
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| 24 | go ahead and create, you know, applications using
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| 25 | Microsoft Java, it will interoperate, and at the time |
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| 1 | the person said that, he meant it and was sincere, went
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| 2 | back home, and somebody said, well, actually, that is
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| 3 | not true, all these people are only going to be able to
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| 4 | write applications that work on our product, and he
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| 5 | said, oh, yeah, that is a pretty nice fact, why don't we
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| 6 | just keep that ourselves?
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| 7 | I am not sure that the intent at the time of the
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| 8 | statement is really -- for antitrust purposes, that may
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| 9 | sometimes be more confusing.
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| 10 | MR. CARY: Yes, I completely agree with that,
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| 11 | and I think this goes back to Gil's distinction between
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| 12 | exploitation and deception in the first instance. One
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| 13 | can imagine, for example, a scenario where someone in
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| 14 | good faith enters into a FRAND obligation, and then a
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| 15 | year later, the CEO changes, and there is pressure on
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| 16 | the stock, and he comes up with a brilliant idea, why
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| 17 | don't we just increase the royalties on these patents?
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| 18 | It would seem to me that that kind of exploitation is
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| 19 | just as much an antitrust violation as one with the
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| 20 | deceptive intent in the first instance.
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| 21 | MR. OHANA: And since we are in the world of
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| 22 | patent trolls and nonproducing entities, the fact
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| 23 | pattern that George just described is not one that is
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| 24 | unfamiliar to many of us where incentives change after a
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| 25 | patent is disclosed subject to a RAND obligation, and |
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| 1 | what you thought was RAND based on what you perceived to
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| 2 | be the incentives of the party making the declaration
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| 3 | turns out to be quite wrong, often with significant
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| 4 | economic consequences.
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| 5 | At that point, I don't really care a whole lot
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| 6 | about whether the initial statement was made with guile
|
| 7 | or opportunism. What I care about is the economic
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| 8 | consequence at the end.
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| 9 | DR. ROZEK: I think when you are talking about
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| 10 | safe harbor as being a more objective standard to apply,
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| 11 | like again, using the Merger Guidelines as an example,
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| 12 | with the Herfindahl Index standards in the Merger
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| 13 | Guideline. It is a more direct standard, easy to apply.
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| 14 | By contrast, whether something is misleading or not
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| 15 | misleading is difficult to determine with a bright line
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| 16 | rule. It would be harder in this context to have a safe
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| 17 | harbor as compared to the merger standard.
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| 18 | MR. DAGEN: Well, it is now approximately 1:00.
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| 19 | There are many other issues that we could have covered
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| 20 | today, but I think we have covered a lot of ground, and
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| 21 | I wanted to thank both the panelists and again the FTC
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| 22 | staff and DOJ staff who put pretty much all of this
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| 23 | together, and thank Hill. I would like to thank
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| 24 | everybody for being here, the panelists especially for
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| 25 | taking time out to educate us today, and I would like to |
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| 1 | ask the audience to give one final round of applause.
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| 2 | (Applause.)
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| 3 | (Whereupon, at 1:02 p.m., the hearing was
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| 4 | concluded.)
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| 5 |
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| 6 |
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| 7 |
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| 8 |
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141
| 1 | C E R T I F I C A T I O N O F R E P O R T E R.
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| 2 | DOCKET/FILE NUMBER: P062106
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| 3 | CASE TITLE: SECTION 2 HEARING
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| 4 | DATE: DECEMBER 6, 2006
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| 5 |
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| 6 | I HEREBY CERTIFY that the transcript contained
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| 7 | herein is a full and accurate transcript of the notes
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| 8 | taken by me at the hearing on the above cause before the
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| 9 | FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION to the best of my knowledge and
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| 10 | belief.
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| 11 |
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| 12 |
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| 13 |
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| 14 |
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| 15 |
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| 16 | | | SUSANNE BERGLING, RMR-CLR |
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| 17 |
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| 18 | C E R T I F I C A T I O N O F P R O O F R E A D E R
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| 19 |
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| 20 | I HEREBY CERTIFY that I proofread the transcript
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| 21 | for accuracy in spelling, hyphenation, punctuation and
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| 22 | format.
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| 23 |
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| 24 |
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| 25 | |
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