Case Document

SI- Wandering Medicine v. McCullough 2014

Date

Friday, April 25, 2014

Document Type

Statement of Interest

Attachments

20140425_mt_wandering_medicine_dmt.pdf

You may view the statement of interest in pdf format.

JOCELYN SAMUELS

Acting Assistant Attorney General

Civil Rights Division

T. CHRISTIAN HERREN, JR

BRYAN L. SELLS

JANIE ALLISON (JAYE) SITTON

VICTOR J. WILLIAMSON

Attorneys

Voting Section, Civil Rights Division

U.S. Department of Justice

Room 7264 NWB

950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20530

Telephone: (202) 353-0792

Facsimile: (202) 307-3961

bryan.sells@usdoj.gov

Attorneys for the United States

MICHAEL W. COTTER

United States Attorney

VICTORIA L. FRANCIS

Assistant U.S. Attorney

U.S. Courthouse

2601 Second Avenue North

Box 3200

Billings, MT 59101

Telephone: (406) 247-4633

Facsimile: (406) 657-6989

victoria.francis@usdoj.gov

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF MONTANA

BILLINGS DIVISION

MARK WANDERING MEDICINE, et al.,

Plaintiffs,

LINDA McCULLOCH, in her official capacity as Montana Secretary of State, et al.,

Defendants.

CASE NO. 1:12-CV-135-DWM

STATEMENT OF INTEREST OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

The United States respectfully submits this Statement of Interest pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 517, which authorizes the Attorney General to attend to the interests of the United States in any pending suit. The United States has a strong interest in the resolution of this matter, which implicates the interpretation and application of Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, 42 U.S.C. § 1973. In addition to providing a private right of action, Congress gave the Attorney General broad authority to enforce Section 2 of the Act. See 42 U.S.C. § 1973j(d). Accordingly, the United States has a substantial interest in ensuring that Section 2 is properly interpreted and that it is vigorously and uniformly enforced. Indeed, the United States previously filed a Statement of Interest in this case at the preliminary injunction stage and also participated as amicus curiae on appeal before the Ninth Circuit in this case in order to address the interpretation and application of Section 2 in this context.

The plaintiffs in this case alleged, among other things, that the location of the site for in-person late registration and early voting in Big Horn, Blaine, and Rosebud counties discriminates against Native Americans in violation of Section 2. Compl. ¶¶ 161-63, ECF No. 1. On April 4, 2014, following the Ninth Circuit’s dismissal of plaintiffs’ appeal from the denial of a preliminary injunction and further discovery in this Court, the plaintiffs and the defendant counties and county officials (“county defendants”) filed cross-motions for summary judgment

pursuant to Rule 56 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. See Pls.’ Mot. Summ. J. , ECF No. 159; County Defs.’ Mot. Summ. J., ECF No. 163.

In their brief in support of summary judgment, Mem. Supp. County Defs.’ Mot. Summ. J., ECF No. 166 (“Defs.’ Mem.”), the county defendants argue that plaintiffs’ claims are not cognizable under Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act and thus argue they are entitled to judgment as a matter of law. The limited purpose of this Statement is to explain why the county defendants’ interpretation of Section 2 lacks merit and therefore cannot support a grant of summary judgment in their favor. This Statement does not address any other issue pending before this Court.

I. BACKGROUND

This case involves two provisions of Montana election law that make it easier for Montanans to exercise their electoral franchise. The first is known as “late registration,” and the second is known as “early voting.” Together, the two provisions offer a convenient one-stop approach to registration and voting that allows a voter to register and vote with a single visit to a local office any time within a 30-day window preceding an election.

Late registration is an option for Montanans who miss the regular mail-in registration deadline 30 days before an election. See Mont. Code. Ann. § 13-2-301. Starting the day after the regular registration deadline and continuing until the close of the polls on Election Day, an eligible voter may register to vote or

update the voter’s existing registration information by appearing in person at the county election office or other location designated by the county election administrator. See Mont. Code Ann. § 13-2-304.

Early voting, which is also known as in-person absentee voting, allows any registered voter to receive, mark, and submit an absentee ballot in person at the county election office or other location designated by the county election administrator. See Mont. Code. § 13-13-222. The early-voting period begins as soon as absentee ballots become available—which is typically about 30 days before the election—and continues until noon on the day before the election. See Mont. Code Ann. §§ 13-13-205, -211.

Late registration and early voting most often take place at the county election office, which usually is located in the county clerk’s office in the county seat. However, as this Court has recognized, Montana law permits a county to create satellite election offices so that late registration and early voting can take place in more than one location. See Order at 9-10 (recognizing that the Secretary of State “had, and has, the ability to issue a directive telling the counties that they must establish satellite voting offices for in-person absentee voting and late voter registration”), ECF No. 153; Pls.’ Mem. Supp. Mot. Prelim. Inj. Ex. 9 (Election Advisory #A01-12), ECF No. 4-2.

Big Horn, Blaine, and Rosebud counties currently offer late registration and early voting only in their respective county seats. Each of these counties is geographically large and sparsely populated. Each county also has a substantial Native American population, most of which lives on or near Indian reservations located within those counties at a great distance from the county seat. Thus, the issue in this case is whether the location of the existing late registration and early voting sites results in Native Americans having “less opportunity than other members of the electorate to participate in the political process and to elect representatives of their choice,” 42 U.S.C. § 1973(b), in violation of Section 2.

II. SUMMARY JUDGMENT STANDARD

Under Rule 56 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, a court shall grant summary judgment “if the movant shows that there is no genuine dispute as to any material fact and the movant is entitled to judgment as a matter of law.” Fed. R. Civ. P. 56(a); accord Anderson v. Liberty Lobby, Inc., 477 U.S. 242, 247 (1986). In deciding whether there is a genuine issue of material fact, the court must draw all justifiable inferences in the nonmoving party’s favor and accept the nonmoving party’s evidence as true. Anderson, 477 U.S. at 255. To determine which facts are “material,” a court must look to the substantive law on which each claim rests. Celotex Corp. v. Catrett, 477 U.S. 317, 322 (1986). A “genuine issue” is one

whose resolution could establish an element of a claim or defense and, therefore, could affect the outcome of the action. Id.

III. ARGUMENT

A. Section 2 applies to the location of late registration and early voting sites.

The county defendants assert that the plaintiffs’ claim is not cognizable under Section 2 because it concerns early and absentee voting. They claim that early and absentee voting is “convenience voting,” and therefore lacks protection under Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act. Defs.’ Mem. 9-15. Not so.

Any determination of what Section 2 means “must begin: with the language of the statute itself.” Caraco Pharm. Labs., Ltd. v. Novo Nordisk A/S, 132 S. Ct. 1670, 1680 (2012). Section 2 is categorical: states can use “[n]o” voting “standard, practice, or procedure . . . which results in a denial or abridgement of the right of any citizen of the United States to vote on account of race or color, or [membership in a language minority group].” 42 U.S.C. § 1973(a). The Act contains a broad definition of the right to vote that encompasses, “all action necessary to make a vote effective,” including, among other things, “registration . . . casting a ballot, and having such ballot counted properly.” 42 U.S.C. § 1973l(c)(1) (emphasis added); accord Allen v. State Bd. of Elections, 393 U.S. 544, 565-66 (1969). If Congress had meant to exempt a category of voting procedures from scrutiny

under the Voting Rights Act, it could have done so. But as the Supreme Court explained in Chisom v. Roemer, 501 U.S. 380 (1991), it is “difficult to believe” that Congress “withdrew, without comment, an important category of elections” from the Act’s protection. Id. at 404. To the contrary, the legislative history of the Act, and of Section 2, in particular, is “indicative of an intent to give the Act the broadest possible scope. Chisom , 501 U.S. at 403 (quoting Allen, 393 U.S. at 567). That broad scope plainly includes the voting procedures at issue here.

Recognizing the Act’s broad scope, courts have interpreted Section 2 to cover all manner of voting procedures. In particular, courts have repeatedly entertained Section 2 claims that involve access to polling places, to voter registration, and to opportunities for absentee and early voting. See, e.g., Operation Push v. Allain, 674 F. Supp. 1245 (N.D. Miss. 1987), aff’d sub nom. Operation Push v. Mabus, 932 F.2d 400 (5th Cir. 1991); Spirit Lake Tribe v. Benson County, No. 2:10-cv-095, 2010 WL 4226614 (D.N.D. Oct. 21, 2010); Brown v. Dean, 555 F. Supp. 502 (D.R.I. 1982); Brown v. Post, 279 F. Supp. 60 (W.D. La. 1968); and Jacksonville Coal. for Voter Prot. v. Hood, 351 F. Supp. 2d 1326 (M.D. Fla. 2004). No court has ever held that any voter registration procedure or ballot-access issue is outside of Section 2’s purview.

Thus, it is hardly unsurprising that the cases on which the county defendants rely do not support their argument. McDonald v. Bd. of Election Comm’rs of

Chicago, 394 U.S. 802, 807 (1969), Griffin v. Roupas, 385 F.3d 1128 (7th Cir. 2004), and Gustafson v. Illinois State Bd. Elections, 2007 WL 2892667 (N.D. Ill. 2007) —see Defs.’ Mem. 10-14—are simply irrelevant. Those cases did not involve claims under the Voting Rights Act in the first place, and thus say literally nothing about the scope of the Act. Similarly, Denis v. N.Y. City Bd. of Elections, 1994 WL 613330, *3 (S.D.N.Y. 1994) —see Defs.’ Mem. 10—did not involve polling locations or early voting of any kind, so it sheds no light on the Act’s coverage of those practices. In any event, contrary to the county defendants’ characterization, the court in Denis simply held that the plaintiffs had failed to meet their burden of showing that, under the totality of the circumstances, black or Latino voters had been prevented from voting in a particular primary election.

The three cases county defendants cite that do involve early or absentee voting also do nothing to support their argument here. In each case, the court assumed that Section 2 covers the practices at issue. Indeed, in Jacksonville Coalition for Voter Protection v. Hood, 351 F. Supp. 2d 1326 (M.D. Fla. 2004), the court expressly declared that “polling places constitute a ‘standard, practice, or procedure with respect to voting’ under Section 2, and that placing voting sites in areas removed from African–American communities can have the effect of abridging the right to vote.” Id. at 1334 (citing Perkins v. Matthews, 400 U.S. 379, 387 (1971)). Similarly, in Brown v. Detzner, 895 F. Supp. 2d 1236 (M.D. Fla.

2012), the court recognized that Section 2 required it to determine “whether the State of Florida, having decided to allow early voting, has adopted early voting procedures that provide equal access to the polls for all voters in Florida.” Id. at 1254-55. To be sure, the plaintiffs in Jacksonville Coalition, Brown, and Jacob v. Bd. of Directors of Little Rock Sch. Dist., 2006 WL 2792172 (E.D. Ark. 2006), were unsuccessful. But they were unsuccessful not because Section 2 did not apply to their claims, but because they had failed to establish a likelihood that the early-voting practices at issue would have the discriminatory effect that Section 2 requires plaintiffs to establish. See Brown, 895 F. Supp. 2d at 1249-55; Jacob, 2006 WL 2792172 at *2; Jacksonville Coalition, 351 F. Supp. 2d at 1333-36

Accordingly, this Court should reject the county defendants’ argument and rule instead, consistent with the Act’s plain text and well-established precedent, that Section 2’s protections apply to the accessibility and location of any late registration and early voting opportunities that a jurisdiction offers.

B. Section 2 does not require the plaintiffs to prove an inability to elect their preferred candidates.

The county defendants also argue that Section 2 “requires Plaintiffs to demonstrate that . . . the Counties’ failure to provide satellite locations [for late registration and early voting] . . . prevented them from electing representatives of their choice.” Defs.’ Mem. 20. They further claim that they are entitled to

summary judgment here because undisputed facts show that some Indian-preferred candidates have been successful in Montana. Because the county defendants’ interpretation of Section 2 conflicts not only with the plain language of the statute but also disregards binding Ninth Circuit precedent, their argument fails as a matter of law.

The plain text of Section 2(b) requires the plaintiffs to show only that the political process is not equally open to Native Americans because the practice at issue results in their having “less opportunity than other members of the electorate to participate in the political process and to elect representatives of their choice.” 42 U.S.C. § 1973(b). The county defendants, by contrast, would require the plaintiffs to show that they “cannot elect representatives of their choice.” Defs’ Mem. 15. The county defendants’ formulation fundamentally alters the statutory test.

Section 2 contains a comparative standard: minority voters cannot be given “less” opportunity than other voters to participate and elect their preferred candidates. It does not require proof that minority voters lack all opportunity to elect. The county defendants’ formulation would give jurisdictions a green light to discriminate. Under their formulation, for example, it would not violate Section 2 for a jurisdiction to decide to keep polling places open for twelve hours in majority-white precincts while having them open for only three hours in majority-

Native American precincts: while this might make voting decidedly more difficult for Native American voters than for white voters, they would have no claim as long as enough of them were willing to bear the difficulty. But that simply cannot be the law.

In support of their argument, the county defendants cite Gonzalez v. Arizona, 677 F.3d 383, 405 (9th Cir. 2012), aff’d on other grounds sub nom. Arizona v. Inter Tribal Council of Arizona, Inc., 133 S. Ct. 2247 (2013). But nothing in Gonzalez remotely supports the county defendants’ argument, and the court itself recites the statutory language. Id. at 407. Indeed, when the county defendants asserted the same position before the Ninth Circuit on appeal that they now assert before this Court on summary judgment, they were met with open skepticism. See Tr. 10/10/2013 at 27-36 (Ex. 1).

Moreover, because determining whether a disputed practice violates Section 2 requires a totality-of-the-circumstances analysis, see 42 U.S.C. 1973(b), this Court has already recognized that “the election of a few minority candidates is not dispositive of a plaintiff’s ability to elect representatives.” Order 17, ECF No. 153 (quoting Windy Boy v. Big Horn Co., 647 F. Supp. 1002, 1018-20 (D. Mont. 1986)). The election of a few minority candidates is also not dispositive of a

plaintiff’s opportunity, relative to other members of the electorate, to elect representatives of their choice. See Gingles, 478 U.S. at 75 (“[T]he language of §

2 and its legislative history plainly demonstrate that proof that some minority candidates have been elected does not foreclose a § 2 claim.”). The Court should therefore reject the county defendants’ argument.

C. Section 2 does not require the plaintiffs to prove that they would be unable to vote without a satellite location.

The county defendants also disregard the plain text of the statute when they argue that, in order to establish a Section 2 violation, the plaintiffs must prove they would be or are unable to vote in the absence of the requested satellite offices. See Defs.’ Mem. 21-23. Specifically, the county defendants assert that they are entitled to summary judgment on the ground that “[t]here is no allegation or proof that Plaintiffs could vote if in-person absentee voting was offered at a satellite office in the locations requested, but cannot, or even do not, without it.” Id. at 22. But the county defendants again miss the point. Section 2 ensures that if a jurisdiction provides expanded voter registration and ballot-access opportunities— such as the late registration and early voting provisions at issue here—it cannot extend those opportunities in a way that results in minority voters having less access to them than non-minority voters enjoy.

Here again, the county defendants simply rely on the wrong standard. Section 2(b) requires only that plaintiffs demonstrate that Native Americans have less opportunity than other members of the electorate to use late registration and

early voting, not that the plaintiffs themselves are unable to participate in the political process by using preexisting voting methods. 42 U.S.C. § 1973(b). The touchstone for Section 2 is inequality of opportunity. In other words, the county defendants cannot effectively require Native Americans to accomplish in one day what they permit other members of the electorate to accomplish in 30 days, particularly in light of the depressed socioeconomic status of Native-Americans relative to white voters, and the totality of the circumstances, in these jurisdictions.

Accordingly, the county defendants are not entitled to summary judgment even if plaintiffs cannot show that they are unable to cast a ballot in all circumstances.

D. Section 2 does not require independent causation.

The county defendants also assert that Section 2 requires the plaintiffs to show that “travel distance alone causes any prohibited discriminatory result.” Defs.’ Mem. 24. They claim that the plaintiffs may not, as a matter of law, meet their burden under Section 2 by showing that travel distance to late registration and early voting sites produces a discriminatory result when “combined with a number of other factors.” Id. But the county defendants offer no analysis or authority to support their claim. In fact, there is none.

First, the county defendants’ argument is irreconcilable with Section 2’s text, which expressly requires courts to consider “the totality of circumstances”

when determining whether a challenged voting practice results in discrimination. 42 U.S.C. § 1973(b). The Act’s legislative history identifies several factors that Congress considered relevant to certain types of Section 2 claims, and it notes that courts may consider other factors that they find to be relevant in a particular case. S. Rep. No. 97-417 at 29 (1982), reprinted in 1982 U.S.C.C.A.N. 177, 207. See generally Thornburg v. Gingles, 478 U.S. 30, 43-46 (1986) (discussing Section 2 and its legislative history). Indeed, as the Supreme Court has explained, the essence of a Section 2 claim under the totality-of-circumstances test is that “a certain electoral law, practice, or structure interacts with social and historical conditions to cause an inequality in the opportunities enjoyed by [voters of different races] to elect their preferred representatives.” Id. at 47 (emphasis added). The text of Section 2 thus requires a court to consider whether a challenged practice produces a discriminatory result when combined with other relevant factors.

Second, the Ninth Circuit has already considered and rejected the county defendants’ argument. In Farrakhan v. Washington, 338 F.3d 1009, 1016-19 (9th Cir. 2003) (Farrakhan I), a Section 2 challenge to the State of Washington’s felon disfranchisement laws, the Ninth Circuit held that independent causation is not required. The district court there had held that a plaintiff must show that a challenged voting practice, “by itself,” caused a discriminatory result—the same

standard now advanced by the county defendants. But the Ninth Circuit reversed, observing that the district court’s standard conflicted with “the plain language of the VRA, its legislative history, and other well-established judicial precedent.” Id. at 1017. Under the totality-of-circumstances test, a plaintiff need not show that a challenged practice alone caused a discriminatory result. Id. at 1018. Rather, a plaintiff may prove causation by pointing to the interaction between the challenged practice and other relevant factors and by showing how that interaction results in the discriminatory impact. Id. at 1019; see id. (“[U]nder Salt River and consistent with both Congressional intent and well-established judicial precedent, a causal connection may be shown where the discriminatory impact of a challenged voting practice is attributable to racial discrimination in the surrounding social and historical circumstances.”). Farrakhan I remains binding authority and thus requires this Court to reject the county defendants’ argument.

Nor does anything in Gonzalez support the county defendants’ narrow interpretation of causation. See 677 F.3d at 405-07. Applying the same causation standard used in Farrakhan I, the Ninth Circuit in Gonzalez merely affirmed a finding that the plaintiffs had offered no proof of causation. The causation standard, already settled in Farrakhan I, was not even an issue in Gonzalez.

CONCLUSION

For the foregoing reasons, the county defendants’ interpretation of Section 2 lacks merit and cannot support a grant of summary judgment in their favor.

Date: April 25, 2014

Respectfully submitted,

MICHAEL W. COTTER JOCELYN SAMUELS

United States Attorney Acting Assistant Attorney General

VICTORIA L. FRANCIS Civil Rights Division Assistant U.S. Attorney

District of Montana /s/ Bryan L. Sells

T. CHRISTIAN HERREN, JR.
BRYAN L. SELLS

JANIE ALLISON (JAYE) SITTON VICTOR J. WILLIAMSON

Attorneys Voting Section

Civil Rights Division

U.S. Department of Justice
Room 7264 NWB

950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20530

Telephone: (202) 353-0792

Facsimile: (202) 307-3961

Counsel for the United States

CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE

The undersigned hereby certifies that the foregoing Statement of Interest of the United States of America was served on all parties by filing through the Court’s CM/ECF system, which automatically sends notice of filing to all attorneys of record. See Local Rule 1.4(c)(2).

Dated: April 25, 2014.

By: /s/Bryan L. Sells

Bryan L. Sells

CERTIFICATE OF COMPLIANCE

The undersigned hereby certifies that the foregoing Statement of Interest of the United States of America complies with the Local Rule 7.1(d)(2) and contains 3,448 words, excluding the caption and certificates of service and compliance. The undersigned has relied upon the word count of Microsoft Word, the word processing system used to prepare this Statement. The original document and all copies of this Statement are in compliance with this rule.

Dated: April 25, 2014.

By: /s/Bryan L. Sells

Bryan L. Sells

Exhibit 1

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT OF APPEALS

FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Mark Wandering Medicine, et al, * Case No.12-35926

Plaintiffs-Appellants, * D.C. No. 1:12-cv-00135-RFC

-vs- * District of Montana
* Billings
Linda McCulloch, et al, *

Defendants-Appellees. * ORAL ARGUMENT

9 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

BEFORE: The Honorable Barry G. Silverman
The Honorable William A. Fletcher
The Honorable Consuelo M. Callahan

APPEARANCES: Mr. David Bradley Olsen

13 Henson & Efron

Minneapolis, Minnesota

Attorney for the Plaintiffs/Appellants.

Ms. Sara Frankenstein

Gunderson, Palmer, Nelson & Ashmore Rapid City, South Dakota
-and-

Mr. Jorge A. Quintana

Special Assistant Attorney General Helena, Montana

Attorneys for the Defendants/Appellees.

Ms. Erin H. Flynn

21 Department of Justice Washington, D.C.

Attorney for the United States of America.

PROCEEDINGS: The above-entitled matter came on for oral

24 argument on the 10th day of October, 2013, in the Federal Building, Portland, Oregon.

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

1 I N D E X

2 Appellants' Argument by Mr. Olsen: Page 3

3	Amicus Argument by Ms.	Flynn:	Page	17
4	Appellees' Argument by	Mr. Quintana:	Page	23
5	Appellees' Argument by	Ms. Frankenstein:	Page	26

6	Appellants'	Rebuttal	Argument	by	Mr.	Olsen:	Page	50
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

1 JUDGE SILVERMAN: Now take up 12-35926, Wandering

Medicine versus United States and McCulloch. I believe

the appellants have decided that they're going to

divide up their time with an amicus view. Go ahead

with this, please, before we get going.

MR. OLSEN: Yes, Your Honor. We have ceded seven

minutes of our time --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: (Unintelligible). We left

something in the robbing room. Be right back.

(Brief pause.)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: I apologize.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: No problem. All righty. I'm

sorry. Introduce yourself again.

MR. OLSEN: Thank you. David Bradley Olsen, Henson

& Efron, Minneapolis, appearing pro bono on behalf of

the plaintiffs-appellants.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: How are you dividing the time?

MR. OLSEN: We would like to cede seven minutes of

our time to the Department of Justice and reserve three

for rebuttal.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: So you're going to take ten --

MR. OLSEN: I'll take ten.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: -- three, they get seven.

MR. OLSEN: Correct.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Gotcha. Okay.

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

MR. OLSEN: May I begin?

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Please.

MR. OLSEN: May it please the Court, in 1986 the

United States Supreme Court in Gingles versus Thornburg

said that Congress intended the Voting Rights Act

eradicate inequalities in the political opportunities

that exist due to the vestigial effects of past

purposeful discrimination. Said Gingles, the ultimate

test under Section 2 is whether a challenged practice

based on the totality of the circumstances interacts

with social and historical conditions to create an

inequality in the opportunities enjoyed by minority and

white voters.

We're here today in 2013 because Montana Indians

living on reservations are still fighting for equal

opportunities to participate in the political process

with respect to late registration to vote and the

ability to vote early by absentee.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Let me ask you this procedurally.

I want to make sure I got the story straight. This is

an appeal of a preliminary injunction, right?

MR. OLSEN: That is correct.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Mandatory injunction still

remains to be seen --

MR. OLSEN: Correct.

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

JUDGE SILVERMAN: -- for permanent relief down the

road. The way I read the record, it looks like as a

practical matter, what was tried in district court for

this preliminary injunction dealt with the 2012

election, and leaving -- leaving for the permanent

injunction permanent relief down the road. And if --

if that's true, I don't know what we can do about the

2012 election. Looks like that's come and gone.

MR. OLSEN: The complaint, Your Honor, asks for

relief not only with respect to the 2012 election, but

with all -- with respect to all future elections as

well.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: I understand that. That's why I

asked you, that's where the permanent injunction down

the road comes in. Looks like what was actually tried

was 2012 election, right?

MR. OLSEN: From a theoretical standpoint, should

this Court find that the Voting Rights Act has been

violated, conceivably it could remand, the district

court could void the election because it was an

unlawful election. That's unlikely to happen, but

conceivably it could. And because the Court could

order that relief, the case is not moot, and because

it's necessary for this Court to define the correct

test and correct the fundamental error of law committed

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

by the district court, it's necessary for this Court to

rule.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Even if it's not moot -- let's

assume for the sake of discussion it's not moot, even

though there is very little we can probably do about

the 2012 election. There was evidence, wasn't there,

presented by the counties that they can't do, in the --

in the couple of weeks before the election, what

they -- what you wanted them to do. There was evidence

to the contrary, too, but there was some evidence they

just couldn't do what you wanted. You filed the

lawsuit less than a month before the election.

Even if it's not moot, why would the district court

have abused his discretion saying, look, it's just --

it's too -- too short a time to accomplish what you

want?

MR. OLSEN: Because voting, Your Honor, is a

fundamental right. The irreparable harm is established

by an abridgment of that right. The counties argued as

a matter of administrative convenience that it might be

difficult for them to establish satellite voting within

the few days remaining before the 2000 -- 2012

election.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: They -- they can't do it.

MR. OLSEN: They -- they said they can't.

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Okay. And you said they can.

And the judge heard evidence back and forth, and

they -- you know, within his discretion said I agree

with them. How can we find that's an abuse of

discretion if there was some evidence to support

what he -- what he did?

MR. OLSEN: We don't think there was any evidence

to support what he did, and as a matter of fact and

law, the district court got that wrong.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Well, let me go to the

(unintelligible) not the question of (unintelligible)

convenience because I think actually, you know, that

could have gone either way. I mean, it was a pretty

short time. What if the district judge made a flat out

mistake of law? Then -- then how -- then how are we

supposed to look at this case?

MR. OLSEN: We're asking here that you remand with

specific instructions to apply the correct test under

the Voting Rights Act.

JUDGE FLETCHER: And are you arguing that the

district judge made a flat out mistake of law?

MR. OLSEN: Absolutely we are.

JUDGE FLETCHER: And this mistake of law, as I'm

just trying to understand what you've said in your

brief and what the government has said in its amicus

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

brief, the mistake of law is that the district judge

concluded that because the Indians on the reservation

were able to elect representatives of their choice,

that was the end of the matter with respect even as to

the opportunity claim. And that's wrong?

MR. OLSEN: We believe that's absolutely wrong,

Your Honor.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Therefore, we should void the

election?

MR. OLSEN: I'm saying that conceivably that is one

remedy that could be applied. We're not asking the

Court to do that. We're asking --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: If you're not asking to do that,

then what are you -- what remedy do you want?

MR. OLSEN: The remedy we want is for the Court to

declare the correct test under the Voting Rights Act

because it's necessary to proceed in this litigation

and all future litigation.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: That isn't really a typical

remedy. That's just asking the Court to -- that --

that sometimes we look at it -- you know, I'm not sure

that takes you out of mootness. If you're not asking

to void the election -- you know, I don't know, is

it -- are you -- if you -- are you asking the Court to

vacate entirely what was said on the preliminary

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

1 injunction so that the -- because I -- what I

understand to some extent that the counties are saying

that they -- they weren't -- you know, the timing did

not also allow them to develop a complete record, and

so you still have the permanent injunction out there.

So, you know, I guess why not just say it's moot

and let everyone go back and start on a clean slate?

It's not even going to be the same judge, right? That

judge retired, is my understanding.

MR. OLSEN: Although if we were to do that, we're

now approximately a year out from the 2014 elections.

When this suit was filed, it was approximately a year

out from the 2012 elections. We're going to be in the

same position in 2014 that we were in in 2012 unless an

appellate court clarifies the correct standard to be

applied in this voting rights litigation.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: Well, okay. So let's talk about

the standard that you're asking. My understanding is

that Subsection (b) of 42 U.S.C. 1973 says that in

making a claim that the political processes are not

equally open to the -- the litigant must show two

things; one, that members of the protected class have

less opportunity than other members of the elective to

participate, and, two, that they have less opportunity

to elect representatives of their choice.

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

1 So which -- you're -- you're asking -- you don't

want "and" to be interpreted as "and." You don't want

to -- you want this Court to say that they don't have

to put on any evidence of number two, right?

MR. OLSEN: In a vote denial case, that is our

position.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: How do we, if -- if that --

JUDGE FLETCHER: That can't be right. What you

mean is less opportunity, and the fact that you can

elect some doesn't mean you had an equal opportunity.

MR. OLSEN: Our position, Your Honor, is that the

"and to elect representatives of their choice" is not

dispositive in a voting rights (unintelligible) case.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: But I think you're asking for

more; that it still would be some evidence, wouldn't

MR. OLSEN: It's one factor that can be considered

(unintelligible).

JUDGE CALLAHAN: My understanding is that you're

asking to say that "and" doesn't really mean "and," and

so there's no requirement of any showing on the second

part of it.

MR. OLSEN: What we're asking this Court to say is

that in a vote denial case, where the right to vote has

been denied or abridged, based on account of race, that

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

the fact that certain minorities have had ability to

elect representatives and representatives have been

elected becomes virtually irrelevant. The statute says

what it says.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: You're writing out the "and"

really in terms of -- and -- and that's where I'm

trying to -- if -- if "and" -- you would have to find

it to be ambiguous to look at the -- if you do

statutory construction, if you say the language is

clear, then before you look at the legislative intent

of Congress, you would say that it was ambiguous, and

so that you would look to it, even though everyone

always peeks under the covers anyway.

But that being said, I -- what I'm understanding

you to say is that the "and" doesn't mean "and"; that

that's what you're asking this Court to declare.

MR. OLSEN: We are asking the Court to say that in

a vote denial case. Absolutely, we are.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Do I understand correctly, in --

in Montana you can vote by -- by mail, is that right?

MR. OLSEN: Correct.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: And on the voting day they could

go to the offices where you wanted the absentee voting

to take place, is that right, on election day?

MR. OLSEN: On election day you can go to a polling

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

place. They do have polling places on the reservation

on election day. But 30 days prior to election,

there's no ability to register to vote at those places,

and there's no ability to vote absentee at those

places. They've got to drive tremendous distances to

the county seats.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Unless they go on election day

and they take their ballot to the -- to the polling

place.

MR. OLSEN: That would have to be before 8:00 a.m.

on election day if it's an absentee ballot.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Did you identify anybody who was

not able to vote, actual name? Come up with a single

human being who couldn't -- who couldn't vote?

MR. OLSEN: No, we did not, nor do we think that's

the correct issue in this case. The question is not

whether the plaintiffs had any ability whatsoever to

vote despite any hurdles that may have been thrown in

front of them. The --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Is there anybody who couldn't

jump over the hurdles?

MR. OLSEN: Not to my understanding, no. Not --

not this group of plaintiffs.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Now, let's go back to the mootness

question. When you were asking for the preliminary

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

injunction in front of the district court, was your

argument directed solely at a preliminary injunction

with respect to the immediately upcoming election or

was it also asking for a preliminary injunction that

would require preparation for the future elections?

What was -- how -- how was your argument --

MR. OLSEN: It was phrased in terms of 2012 and all

future elections. The remedy in 2012 alone would be no

remedy at all.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Well, but I'm asking you what you

were asking out of the district judge. I understand

that if -- if you don't get anything ever, you don't

get anything ever. But I'm asking what was -- what was

the question that the district judge thought was being

presented to him and what was the question that he

thought he was answering? Was it only as to the 2012

election or was it for more than that?

MR. OLSEN: It was for 2012 and all future

elections. And that's even in our complaint.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Even as to the -- even as to the

preliminary --

MR. OLSEN: Even as to the preliminary, correct.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: What would have been left for the

permanent injunction?

MR. OLSEN: The district court had the opportunity

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

to consolidate the two into one hearing, and didn't do

that. The -- from my standpoint, the preliminary

injunction would have been mere cleanup after the

correct test was applied and relief granted at the

preliminary stage.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: Isn't there an argument that the

preliminary injunction was really only as to the 2012,

and the permanent was going to address the 2014 and

future elections? I mean, everyone was just up

against -- I mean, we're talking days before the

election when these hearings were happening.

MR. OLSEN: Certainly that was part of the defense,

that it was difficult to do in the limited time

provided. But our complaint was we wanted relief not

only for 2012, but for all future elections.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: But what was Judge -- if Judge

Cebull -- what -- what did he think he was going to do

on the permanent injunction? Didn't he think he was

going to address future elections on that?

MR. OLSEN: Obviously the future -- that would make

the injunction permanent. We're already asking for

relief into the future. It's temporary relief. It has

to be made permanent with rules.

JUDGE FLETCHER: What happens if we find that this

appeal is moot because the only thing being appealed is

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

a preliminary injunction, and the thrust of the request

for the preliminary injunction was as to the 2012,

that's the only thing that Judge Cebull thought he was

deciding at the preliminary injunction, so we say it's

moot? What happens with respect to the law of the

case?

Now, it's going to go back to a different judge,

and you're going to argue to that different judge that

Judge Cebull made a mistake as to law in interpreting

the word "opportunity." Is this new district judge

going to say, well, listen, that's the law of the case,

that's already been done? What happens?

MR. OLSEN: I can only speculate on that, Your

Honor, but in my experience, when I go to a district

judge, when another has already decided the case before

him or decided the law, they generally tend to follow

their predecessors.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: What if we said we think it's

moot because you were really arguing about 2012 and

that -- that train has left, but we don't -- we don't

endorse the reasoning of the district judge? District

judge should -- new district judge should rethink it

when it goes back for the permanent injunction. Does

that satisfy what you're -- what you're after?

MR. OLSEN: If we had the correct test declared,

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

1 that's what we're asking for today.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: Well, no, sir, it wouldn't satisfy

(unintelligible).

MR. OLSEN: If I could finish, please. But if you

declared the case moot, I don't know that you would

have the power to do that.

And I'm just -- I'm just about out of time. I

would like to refer you to Babbitt versus UFW National

Union, U.S. Supreme Court '79, where they said the

policy implications for adjudication of election

procedure disputes assures the construction of the

statute will have the effect of simplifying future

challenges, thus increasing the likelihood that timely

filed cases can be adjudicated before an election is

held.

Unless this court pronounces the test, we could be

in the 2014 elections before we even get a preliminary

decision. And we can be in the same position again

because the Court has applied the wrong test and is

likely to apply the wrong test absent guidance from

this Court.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Thank you. We'll hear from the

government's amicus. Morning.

MS. FLYNN: Morning.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: Morning.

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

MS. FLYNN: May it please the Court, Erin Flynn on

behalf of the United States. Your Honors, we just want

to be clear that we're participating solely as to the

legal standard under Section 2 of the VRA in this

appeal. Judge Callahan, you raised earlier the plain

text of Section 2(b) as a starting point in the

analysis for the district court's analysis of this

case.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: I mean, it seems me that the

Department of Justice wasn't terribly happy with the

voting rights case that was decided before the Supreme

Court this year, and -- but this is a different

section, so the Department of Justice is teeing up with

cases on this particular section.

MS. FLYNN: Right. Well, Shelby County, Your

Honor, addressed only Section 4(b) really. The Court's

holding in Shelby County only addressed Section 4(b) of

the VRA and whether or not --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: But it's sort of an indication

that the Supreme Court is pulling back a little.

MS. FLYNN: I wouldn't agree with that, Your Honor,

at all. The Supreme Court looked at Section 5 in the

context of Section 2 being an available remedy to

protected groups under the statute. And if anything,

the importance of Section 2 is enhanced, given that

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

Section 5 right now, until Congress -- and unless

Congress amends Section 4(b) --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: Right. So get me back past the

plain language here because it seems to me you're

asking to write out an "and."

MS. FLYNN: No, Your Honor. And -- and that's

where I want to start, is with the plain language,

because the plain text of Section 2(b) requires the

plaintiffs to show, based on the totality of the

circumstances, only that the political process isn't

equally open to them because they have less opportunity

than other members of the electorate to participate in

the political process, and to elect the representatives

of their choice.

And what the district court did here, Your Honors,

is err because he required the plaintiffs to show

unequal access and an inability to elect

representatives of their choice in order to state a

Section 2 violation. And requiring the plaintiffs to

show an inability to elect the representatives of their

choice under Section 2(b) is not the same as the

statutory showing that they're required to show less of

an opportunity to elect candidates of their choice.

And so what the district court did here was say

that plaintiffs have to show they had no opportunity to

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

elect representatives of their choice in order to

prevail under Section 2. And the plain text of

Section 2(b) requires them only to show less of an

opportunity. And so we say that that's where the

district court erred in looking at the

(unintelligible).

JUDGE CALLAHAN: But you're not saying -- I -- I

heard Mr. Olsen to say that they don't think they need

to show anything under Number 2.

MS. FLYNN: No. We're saying that in this context,

what the district court does is what district courts do

in all Section 2 cases, is look at the totality of the

circumstances to determine is there less of an

opportunity to -- to participate in the political

process and less of an opportunity to elect candidates

of choice.

In these types of claims where you have ballot

access and registration issues, it's normally going to

follow from less of an opportunity to elect -- I mean

to participate in the political process that plaintiffs

have less of an opportunity to elect candidates of

their choice. So the standard isn't that plaintiffs

can't vote or that they can't elect candidates of their

choice. It's that they have less of an opportunity

relative to other members of the electorate.

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

So when we're looking here, the plaintiffs are

basically, you know, your --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: So is any evidence that they have

elected candidates of their choice, is that irrelevant

then?

MS. FLYNN: The -- the minority electoral success

is one factor in a number of factors that the Supreme

Court has said courts look to under Section 2. The

relevance of minority electoral success is going to

vary with the nature of the claim and all the universe

of cases looking at (unintelligible).

JUDGE CALLAHAN: So it's not irrelevant, though?

MS. FLYNN: It's not completely irrelevant, but

there are other factors that, in this sort of ballot

access and registration case, become more important to

the totality of the circumstances analysis. And what

the district court did here was not only misinterpret

the statutory language to require the plaintiffs to

show an inability to elect candidates of their choice

to prevail, which was wrong because they only need to

show less of an opportunity to participate in the

process and elect candidates of their choice, but then

on top of it, even if the Court had recited the right

standard, which it didn't, it would look only to

minority electoral successes, one factor in a number of

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

factors that could be relevant. And courts don't treat

ability to elect when they're treating it as one factor

as dispositive in any case.

And so there's kind of two levels of error here.

The district court got the statutory text wrong, and

then even if the district court had gotten the

statutory text correct, which he didn't, he

wouldn't normally --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: The argument that he sort of

misspoke because it does look like that he did look to

some totality of the factors. It doesn't look like

that's the only thing he looked to.

MS. FLYNN: Your Honor, on the basis of what the

district court said, I think it's difficult to say that

he misspoke because on Page 7 he said the issue is

whether the -- there's less access to in-person

absentee voting and late registration, and that

plaintiffs are unable to elect representatives of their

choice. And he goes on to say the plain text and the

cases applying Section 2(b) require plaintiffs to show

both unequal access and an inability to elect. And

that's not the statutory showing. It's not what the

plain text requires.

Again, on Page 12, he says that there is an

explicit requirement that Section 2 plaintiffs show

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

that the challenged practice results in their inability

to elect candidates of choice. Again, that's not the

statutory showing. And on 14, he says since the

plaintiffs are able to elect their candidates of choice

without the satellite offices, their Section 2 claim is

likely to fail.

And even if, you know, there was some doubt as to

what the district court meant, on appeal the county

defendants repeatedly say in their brief that the

statutory standard is that plaintiffs have to show they

can't vote, and that they can't elect candidates of

their choice. And that's on Pages 8, 15, 58, and 59 of

the county defendant's brief. They say repeatedly that

the plaintiffs have to show actual vote denial, which

isn't the standard under Section 2 of the VRA.

And so I don't think that, you know, we can just

take for granted that the district court misspoke in

this case, Your Honor.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Well, as I read the district

judge, and now reading the first sentence of that last

paragraph on Page 12 to which you alluded but you

didn't read the full text, I'll just read the first

sentence. Finally -- this is now the district judge.

"Finally, and most importantly, because of the explicit

requirement that Section 2 plaintiffs prove that the

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

challenged procedure or lack thereof results in the

inability to elect representatives of their choice,"

da, da, da. I mean that's the statement of the law.

It is saying --

MS. FLYNN: Right. And that is correct.

JUDGE FLETCHER: -- that the plaintiff under

Section 2 has to prove that they cannot -- that's

essential to a Section 2 claim in his view.

9 MS. FLYNN: And that's what we're saying, is that

that's a completely incorrect statement of the law.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Okay. Thank you very much.

MS. FLYNN: Thank you.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: We will hear from the appellees.

Before we start I guess, are you going to be taking all

the time?

MR. QUINTANA: I certainly hope not, Your Honor.

I -- my name is Jorge Quintana. I represent the state

defendant, the Secretary of State. I expect to use

maybe three minutes.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: What I meant was are you going to

split it with --

MR. QUINTANA: We are going to split it, Your

Honor.

May it please the Court, as I stated, my name is

Jorge Quintana. I represent -- I'm a Special Assistant

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

1 Attorney General and chief legal for Secretary of

State, and I'm here representing the state defendant.

The plaintiffs-appellants have failed to show that

the Secretary of State is a necessary party. They did

not and they cannot show that the Secretary of State

violated any duty or any law. The plaintiffs have

requested the specific relief of opening up late

registration and in-person absentee offices. The

Secretary of State does not issue absentee ballots, we

do not open satellite --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: (Unintelligible) there isn't any

case out there from the Supreme -- your state Supreme

Court, why shouldn't we just sort of (unintelligible)

this issue to the Supreme -- state Supreme Court and

ask them to give us an answer?

MR. QUINTANA: Your Honor, I would not have an

objection with that. That was brought up in the

hearing by the attorney for the county defendants. And

the -- Judge Cebull stated that, you know, it was six

days before the election. There wasn't time to certify

that question; although that dealt with whether or not

satellite offices were even legal under the Montana

code.

JUDGE FLETCHER: I think we know the answer to that

now; that they are legal. The question is now whether

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

it's been compelled under Section 2.

MR. QUINTANA: The county defendants -- I don't

want to speak for the county defendants. These are two

separate cases. But the county defendants I believe in

their brief argue that this may not -- the satellite

offices may not be legal.

JUDGE FLETCHER: I may be wrong. I thought that

had been settled, but...

MR. QUINTANA: From the Secretary of State point of

view, we're relying on the letter advice given us to --

given to us by the attorney general that said satellite

offices could be opened under the county's

self-governing powers.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Right.

MR. QUINTANA: And it's --

JUDGE FLETCHER: That's what I'm referring to, yes.

MR. QUINTANA: And it's -- it's interesting because

the -- the plaintiffs-appellants' theory of the case is

that we should disregard that letter, that we should

order the county commissioners to open up these

satellite offices; yet they point to no law or case

that agrees with this position that the Secretary of

State can use her powers under Title 13 to force a

outcome upon the county commissioners under their

discretionary powers under Title 7, which is local

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

government under the Montana code annotated. And

perhaps we'll hear an answer to that in rebuttal.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: You made a motion to dismiss in

district court.

MR. QUINTANA: Yes, Your Honor, based on --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Is that just laying out there?

Is that --

MR. QUINTANA: It is, Your Honor. The -- the

plaintiffs have stayed the proceedings. I mean, they

can talk about how urgent the timing is, but they have

stayed the proceedings below. So our motion to dismiss

under 12(b)(1) for lack of standing and 12(b)(6) for

failure to state a claim upon which relief can be

granted is just sitting there in limbo, although the

judge's decision did grant us a footnote, saying that

we made a pretty decent argument.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Your -- your three minutes are --

are up.

MR. QUINTANA: Then I hope I did well. Thank you,

Your Honor.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Thank you very much. Appreciate

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: May it please the Court,

counsel. Good morning. I'm Sara Frankenstein

representing the county defendants in this case.

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

1 It's important to note all the ways that one can

vote in Montana, including Native Americans who reside

in Montana. This case is about absentee voting.

That's the second thing to clarify. It is not about

the right to vote. It is about how and where and the

logistics around receiving an absentee ballot.

There's five ways to receive an absentee

application to -- to obtain an absentee ballot in

Montana. First is you can mail in the application,

postage prepaid by the county. Second, you can fax in

your application for an absentee ballot. Third, you

can hand it in in person at the election office.

Fourth, you can send it with a designated person,

whomever you choose, who can hand in that application

and then receive your ballot for you. And, five, in

Montana you can sign up for lifetime absentee ballots

to be delivered to any address of your choice.

JUDGE FLETCHER: All of that goes to equal

opportunity, ease of access. I'm not sure I want to

get there yet. And I'm not sure the district judge

even really got there. The district judge in his order

says, well, you've got to show as a matter of

requirement under Section 2 an inability to elect

representatives of their choice. And as I view it, we

really don't have much finding out of the district

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

court as to what differential difficulties the tribal

members might or might not have. I understand that's

the argument you're wanting to address to us, but I'm a

little reluctant to go to that question without a

little more out of the district judge.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Prong one and prong two, both

within the text of the Voting Rights Act, prong two

seems to be the thrust of the plaintiffs appeal, but

they also must prove prong one, which is that there was

unequal ability to vote. And all of these many methods 11 --

JUDGE FLETCHER: It's unequal opportunity, not

unequal ability. The word is "opportunity." That's

the statutory word.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: And there was absolutely no

reference, no testimony from any plaintiff at all,

indicating that any of these other ways are -- pose a

problem, that they're unable to cast a vote, that they

in fact don't vote, or that they're burdened in doing

them. In fact, the plaintiffs do vote in these many

different ways.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Let me ask you a different

question. This may help focus your argument in a way

that's helpful to me. You -- you've read the

government's amicus brief, and you've heard the

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

1 government arguing here. Do you disagree with the

government as to its abstract statement as to what the

law requires, not yet applying them to the facts of

this case?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Yes. And I think you're

referring to prong two, about the word "and" in the

second portion --

JUDGE FLETCHER: I'm not referring only to the word

"and." I'm asking you, do you disagree with the

government's description of what the government says is

the meaning of Section 2?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Absolutely.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Okay. So what's your view of the

meaning of Section 2?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: If you look at the first

section, which is Section (a), it tells you what the

Voting Rights Act prohibits. It prohibits the denial

of the opportunity to vote. You can also bring a vote

dilution claim, but it's one of the two; vote denial or

vote dilution. Section (b) tells you what you need to

prove to prove Section (a). The totality of the

circumstances and the various things you must prove as

elements to prove a Section (a) claim.

Much of the discussion has been with regard to the

second prong in (b), but they also needed to prove

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

prong one, which they did not prove, and they also

needed to --

JUDGE FLETCHER: You -- you're losing me a little

bit when you say prong one or prong two. What's prong

one or prong two as you're using those terms?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Prong one is that members of the

minority class have less opportunity than other members

of the electorate to participate in the political

process.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Okay. And prong two is --

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: That the minority has less

opportunity to elect representatives of their choice.

JUDGE FLETCHER: So for both prongs, you view less

opportunity is the applicable test?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: No, Your Honor.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Well, you just said less

opportunity is a lead in to both prong one and prong

two.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: I rely on the text of the Voting

Rights Act.

JUDGE FLETCHER: I am, too. But I just heard you

say prong one is less opportunity than other members to

participate in the political process, and then you said

prong two is less opportunity to elect representatives

of their choice.

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Well --

JUDGE FLETCHER: Is that what you meant to say?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Well, I mean to say what the

Voting Rights Act says. I mean to read it to you. It

says, "and to elect representatives of their choice."

JUDGE FLETCHER: I -- I understand.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: But does the opportunity

modifies both one and two.

JUDGE FLETCHER: And that's the question.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: First of all, I don't think it

does, Your Honor. Secondly, it doesn't matter because

they have opportunity and did in fact vote in other

ways.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: Okay. I think -- I don't want to

tell you how to spend your time, but I think to make it

most productive for everyone, I think Judge Fletcher

was asking you how do you interpret the language. And

I guess what I just heard out of there is that you

don't think "opportunity" modifies two, even though

that's the way you just read it. You said opportunity

to do one and opportunity to do two.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Then I read it wrong, Your

Honor. I would rely on the text which says --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: You're saying "opportunity" does

not apply to two. Now, both counsel for appellants

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

said -- they said different things in my mind; that --

the first counsel, Mr. Olsen, said they don't think

that they need to even talk about prong two, that

they're really -- they're not reading that as an "and."

I did not hear government counsel, Miss Flynn, I

believe -- I heard her say that it is -- it is an

"and," but "opportunity" modifies one and two. And

what the judge did hear was to focus on two, and not

apply the totality of the circumstances to -- to

everything.

So the question is if we're going -- if we -- if --

if we say it's not moot and we give statutory

construction to it, then that's not about whether you

win or lose. It's about what is the test. And if the

test is opportunity to do one and opportunity to do

two, then apply the totality of the circumstances, then

that's -- but you're saying you disagree. You think

it's opportunity to do one, and two stands alone.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: I do, Your Honor. And that's

how the U.S. Supreme Court has issued its

interpretation of the statute in Chisom versus Roemer.

It's also reflected in this Court's en banc opinion in

Gonzalez versus Arizona.

JUDGE FLETCHER: You know, I read -- I read both of

those cases differently than you do. And I certainly

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

would say that Farrakhan two goes the other way. Now,

Farrakhan two is no longer binding. It was vacated.

But I read both Roemer and Gonzalez to agree with what

the government's reading is.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Your Honor, I would disagree.

If you look at the cases that we have cited, other

district courts and other courts of appeals have ruled

in the same manner.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Well, you know, I think the only

case you've got that rules your way is the District

Court of Montana. As I read the circuit courts from

elsewhere, they -- they agree with the government.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Your Honor, that's not true. In

our brief we have a number of --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: You're saying you have a case

exactly on point? We don't need to publish then. If

there's a case exactly on point, then we cite that case

and we're done.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: I cited them throughout my brief

where in a vote denial case, the Court indicates that

they will not grant plaintiffs' relief because the

plaintiffs were not able to show that the minority

plaintiffs were unable to elect their candidates of

choice. And I did cite those throughout my brief.

That's oftentimes cited in these cases because, of

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

course, it's explicit within Section 2 of the Voting

Rights Act.

The Court did not focus on only that in granting

our motion to dismiss at the preliminary injunction

hearing. The Court found a number of things. First,

it found under the Voting Rights Act, the Native

American plaintiffs did not prove less opportunity to

participate politically. That's the prong one

argument.

Two, we talked about prong two, that they did not

prove.

Third, the plaintiffs didn't even plead causation.

And causation is required, and if it's not there, it's

dispositive of the plaintiffs' claim. There was no

evidence showing causation, it wasn't even pleaded, and

the plaintiffs at the hearing told the district court

that we don't need to prove it.

Now on appeal, both the Department of Justice, as

well as the plaintiffs, concede that they do have to

prove causation, but they would like you to believe

that it's a different test than that indicated in the

case law.

JUDGE FLETCHER: You know, I am reading Pages 405

to 407 of the Gonzalez opinion, and I find no support

for your argument. They keep -- you know, the Gonzalez

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

opinion keeps quoting the statutory language sometimes

by inference and sometimes directly. I'll just read

the first column on Page 405, the first paragraph under

Section (a). "A violation of Section 2

(unintelligible) is established if," and then they

quote the language of the statute that we have here in

front of us. Said otherwise, the plaintiff can -- this

is the prior court speaking, said otherwise the

plaintiff can prevail on a Section 2 claim only if,

quote, based on the totality of the circumstances the

challenged voting practice results in discrimination on

the account of race.

I see nothing in Gonzalez that tells us that there

is a different test, opportunity or not opportunity,

for the two prongs.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Your Honor, it lists it within

numeral one before the first prong and in numeral two

before the second prong. And you'll see no --

JUDGE FLETCHER: Of course, that's absolutely right

in brackets. And preceded by the worth "opportunity."

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Before the word "to elect

representatives," I don't believe so. There's no

opportunity --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: I think it's and members --

equally open to participation by members of a protected

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

class and that its members have less opportunity than

other members of the electorate, one, to participate in

the political process, two, to elect representatives

(unintelligible).

JUDGE FLETCHER: (Unintelligible) is simply quoting

the statute and inserting those brackets.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: That's true, Your Honor.

JUDGE FLETCHER: We're back to the same argument.

I would have expected, though, in Gonzalez, if there

were a differential analysis for prong one and prong

two, the Court might have said so. It never says a

darn thing about it. It -- it keeps giving us the

phrase "opportunity," followed by one and two.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Your Honor, this is a wonderful

academic argument, but the truth of the matter is the

plaintiffs didn't put on any proof that they had less

opportunity to elect candidates.

JUDGE FLETCHER: That's a -- that's a different

question. I would first like to understand what the

statute means because I'm inclined to think that Judge

Cebull got the statute wrong.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: There would be no cases that

indicate that, Your Honor. As you can see in the

Department of Justice amicus brief, there are no cases

in support of that theory. But, secondly, the

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

plaintiffs didn't prove that they had less opportunity

to elect candidates of choice. No proof on that

whatsoever. So --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: Maybe what -- Cebull did not abuse

his discretion, but if the Court is going to do

statutory construction going forward, that's -- it is

more than a nice academic argument here.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Your Honor, first of all, I

believe the plaintiffs need to plead this issue and

they need to brief it; none of which was done before

the district court. So while we can talk about this

on -- on appeal, we really need to look at whether or

not Judge Cebull abused his discretion.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: I think -- I understand why you

want to stick to, you know, this is my argument, and

I'm sticking to it, but oral argument is part of the --

when the judges want to ask questions, and we're

looking at mootness, we're looking at what -- you know,

all those things. We haven't discussed it, but, you

know, it's not really helpful to marginalize the

questions and keep deflecting them and saying it's an

academic argument or it's this or that if that's what

the Court wants to talk about because I think you want

to give an answer to it, don't you?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Your Honor, my answer is --

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

JUDGE CALLAHAN: Otherwise the answer is that's an

academic argument, and you don't need to think about

it. And then we go back and think about that academic

argument, and you've said nothing.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: I've -- I've given my answer,

and I'm happy to do it again. There is no word

"opportunity" before the word clause "to elect

representatives." There is no case law that indicates

that should be inserted there. So our argument is

Judge Cebull did not err when he found that the text

should be read as the text is.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Let me ask a practical question

here with the academics for a minute.

JUDGE FLETCHER: If I can interject, as a former

academic, I almost find that it really hurts a guy when

they say that's just academic. I can recognize an

insult.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: I did not mean to do so, Your

Honor.

JUDGE FLETCHER: No. That was facetious. Okay.

Please go ahead.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: As -- as a practical matter, if

you -- if you lose, what would you have to do? What do

they want you to do?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: I'm not sure what it is that the

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

plaintiffs are asking us to do.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Well, don't they want you to

designate somebody at board -- how do say that --

Belnap Agency --

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Right.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: -- at Lame Deer and Crow Agency,

designate somebody there to register people and receive

absentee ballots?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Right. They're asking us to set

up a satellite office, presumably now before the 2014

election.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: And a satellite office, you don't

have to build a building there. You need to designate

someone to do this, is that right?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Right. We would need --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Is that a big deal? I mean, I'm

having a hard time visualizing why that's such a --

such a big deal to do.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: It is difficult, Your Honor.

And I would ask that you take a look at Sandra

Boardman's testimony. She was the one who talked a

great deal about this. She's the election

administrator in Blaine County. And she testified how

it doesn't just require room that you can rent, but it

requires ADA, high speed internet, but also somebody

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

with --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: High speed internet which is,

what, like plug it into the wall or something?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Well, it's got to be high speed

which isn't necessarily what all buildings would have.

But it also has to have --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Do they have internet up at these

places?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: I'm sorry. What?

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Do they have internet service in

these places?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: That was up in the air. Many

people couldn't confirm whether or not they did.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: Are you saying you can't

(unintelligible) --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: (Unintelligible) high speed

internet at the headquarters of the tribe?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: I'm sorry.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: They don't have high speed

internet at the tribal headquarters?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: There was mixed conclusions on

that. Many people -- there was much testimony, for

instance, Big Horn County, there was no testimony about

any room that was available.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Okay. So they need to have high

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

speed internet. What else do they need?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: They need to have a Montana

Votes computerized system there that has a scanner and

somebody who's authorized to use it which requires a

C-number which means you pass --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Why is that such a big deal to

get a scanner up there?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Because absentee ballots are --

are not just handed out. You must fill out your

application, and then all your information is typed

into Montana Votes. And then it produces a scan code

or a bar code.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Okay.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: And that accompanies each

absentee ballot. So then when you go and hand your

ballot back in and say, here, I'm voting --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Yes.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: -- the clerk and recorder would

scan in -- up would pop your name and your signature

and it would take care --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Why is that such a big deal to

do? I don't get it.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Because there are not enough

people who are C-certified to man both offices.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: We would need three people?

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

1 MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Yes, you would need three people 2 at --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: One for -- one for Fort Belnap,

one for Lame Deer, one for Crow Agency?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Right.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: What's the big deal with that?

You have to get somebody --

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: You have to --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: -- there to do that.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: You have to have a C-

certification.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Okay. So you have a C-

certification. What's -- what, do you have to go to

France to get those or anywhere -- where do you get a

C-certification?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: You have to go through the -- I

believe it's a computerized training in order to do

that.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Is that a big deal to do?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Is it, Your Honor.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Why?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Miss -- Miss Boardman indicated

that it's a very -- it's not a user friendly method.

But more importantly, Your Honor --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: That's why you couldn't do it in a

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

week, right?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Absolutely.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: But now we're talking about a

year. So you don't have the same impediments for a

year as you did for a week. And I think part of all

that you have been saying is that the record needs to

be further developed on what happens in 2014.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Your Honor, it was well

developed about what would happen. Even if all of this

is in place and we use the system that the plaintiffs

propose, it would be impossible to have a recount.

That was clear from Miss Boardman's testimony; that

even if we had the time and the resources and

everything to set this all up, you could not have a

recount because their method that they proposed

requires altering and voiding ballots, back and forth

constant communications, of altering ballots, voiding

its -- its corresponding ballot back at the home

office, and doing this back and forth by phone and

through the Montana Vote system.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: They do this elsewhere in

Montana, don't they?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: They do not, Your Honor.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: They don't have satellite voting

elsewhere in Montana?

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: No, they do not. This is the

first --

JUDGE FLETCHER: How do you deal in Montana with

absentee ballots that are just sent in by mail? Are

those counted on the same day?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Are those what? I'm sorry.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Are those counted on the same day?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: I'm not sure on what day they're

counted, but when they come in they have a bar code on

them, so then they can scan it in, up pops your name

and your signature (unintelligible).

JUDGE FLETCHER: I understand what you're saying.

But I assume that any absentee ballots sent in will

have a bar code on it. I think I'm hearing you say

that you -- you think it's required that you do the

scanning immediately in order for the counting. I'm

not sure that that's so, meaning if you count absentee

ballots in the week or ten days after the election when

it's -- you know, when the absentee ballots might make

a difference, so you -- you do it ten days later, and

you don't do it necessarily at the remote location.

You do it wherever you -- wherever you need to do it.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: When the voter comes in and he

says I want to absentee -- I want to vote absentee, you

must take down their information and get their

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

1 signature and put it into the Montana Vote system

because there has to be a signature in there to compare

when the paper ballot comes in.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Yeah.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: So you have to have access. It

also tells you which sequential ballot to be issued to

that voter, and that's told to you through Montana

Vote. So you have to be in front of that computer

screen and know, oh, this is voter number three.

JUDGE FLETCHER: You know, I have to say I'm

unconvinced, but I also have to say that given the

current state of the record and how little we have as a

finding from the district judge, I'm quite unequipped

to decide this.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: I think it would be very helpful

to go through the discovery process and do it through

the permanent injunction rather than through this

preliminary injunction appeal.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: Can you speak to mootness.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Yeah.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Yes, Your Honor. We do believe

this case is moot. It's not (unintelligible) review --

capable of repetition, yet evading review because the

case still is at the district court level. By nature

it cannot be (unintelligible) review because the

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

plaintiffs, if they receive an adverse ruling there,

they can seek review at that time.

JUDGE FLETCHER: It sounds as though it might be

helpful. Until -- until I started hearing argument

today, I didn't think it was. We're now told, well,

listen, we're going to go back down and we're going to

get another one of these last minute situations because

of the time -- the time (unintelligible) going forward.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Your Honor, we do have a year.

The plaintiffs filed a motion to stay the case. We

were opposed to it. We don't have a ruling on that

yet, so conceivably the district court could begin

ruling on this case at any time.

JUDGE FLETCHER: And then time for appeal. I mean,

what are we talking about?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Well, that's a good point. But

if there's an appeal by the plaintiffs, that means they

had an adverse ruling.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Yeah, I'm assuming that's

possible, but you might also get one. You might want

to appeal, too.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Right. But it would be -- it

wouldn't need to be fast-tracked if -- if we did.

JUDGE FLETCHER: You say it would not?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: No. If the defendants got a

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

ruling, we wouldn't need to. We wouldn't ask for it to

be fast-tracked. So the time frame isn't of importance

to us, if I understood the question.

JUDGE FLETCHER: The (unintelligible) didn't want

to fast-track if you lose. Is that what you're saying?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: No. I'm saying the plaintiffs

are the one who believe that the time is of the essence

here, but they filed the motion to stay at the district

court level.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: I think what Judge Fletcher is

asking you is if -- if the judge says you have to do

these things, you lost, you have to do all these

things, you have put in wireless internet, you have to

get the scanner and everything, you wouldn't ask

to have -- you wouldn't appeal that on a fast-track

basis?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Oh, I -- I suppose, depending

how quickly that order came down before the election,

that -- that's conceivable.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Yeah. I kind of think so.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: I see you are over your time.

Thank you. (Unintelligible).

JUDGE FLETCHER: Well, you know, I would like to

pursue mootness just one more -- little bit here,

because the mootness is actually a tricky question

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

here.

What's your view as to the question that was

presented to Judge Cebull and the question he answered?

Was it just as to the 2012 election that the

preliminary injunction was sought or was it also a

preliminary injunction to get ready for the 2014?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Your Honor, I do not remember

any evidence coming in regarding down the road two

years from now in 2014 whether or not this can be done.

All the evidence was whether we can get this going in

eight working days -- six working days, eight actual

days, before the election. So the evidence that came

in was with regard to whether we can get this done in

the following week.

JUDGE FLETCHER: And the complaint asks for

preliminary and permanent injunction for both the 2012

and future elections. I understand that. I mean this

is what the complaint says. But I'm trying to figure

out what the actual preliminary injunction was that was

sought. And it sounds as though the focus was on the

2012 election.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Certainly the evidence was, Your

Honor.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Yeah. It would be helpful to the

parties if we were to indicate at this time our

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

construction of the statute so that the district judge

knows what to do when it goes back down?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Well, I don't know that

procedurally that that's the method -- that's as if one

is seeking an advisory opinion of the Court rather than

a reversal of the district court's decision on the

preliminary injunction. I don't believe that's the

proper method of seeking appeal. I believe that the --

the district court should be allowed to determine the

case, and that if the plaintiffs or either side are

unhappy with it, they can seek review at that time.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Yes. Let's just say we

expressly -- we specifically express no opinion on the

correctness of the ruling; how about that?

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: But instead --

JUDGE SILVERMAN: In other words, we don't say this

is how we construe it, but we want to put you on

notice, we're not -- we're not endorsing it either.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Oh. And affirm the decision,

but --

JUDGE FLETCHER: No. Dismiss it as moot and say,

and this is not to be construed in any way as our

endorsing of the decisions by district court

interpreting the law.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: Certainly, Your Honor.

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

That's -- that was our request in the motion to dismiss

on mootness ground. We didn't expect anything more

than that.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Anything else?

JUDGE FLETCHER: The reason we -- the reason we're

suggesting it this way I think is to free up the

district judge who will get this case, of course we

know will not be Judge Cebull, to look at -- look at

the legal question afresh rather than subject to the

constraints of the law of the case.

MS. FRANKENSTEIN: I -- I would expect that, Your

Honor.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Okay. Thank you.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Mr. Olsen, I think you have three

minutes left.

MR. OLSEN: If I may, since we finished with a

discussion of mootness, I think I'll start there.

In 1998, Ruiz versus City of Santa Maria, this

Court said, "Claims for injunctive relief are moot only

when subsequent events make clear that the alleged

violations are not reasonably expected to recur." Here

they are not only reasonably expected to recur, the

county has said it has no obligation to --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: (Unintelligible) 2012 is not going

to reoccur.

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

MR. OLSEN: 2012 will not recur, no.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: Yeah --

MR. OLSEN: But --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: -- if you construe it narrowly.

If you construe it more broadly, elections will

continue, we hope, if the government ever gets back to

work.

MR. OLSEN: The elections will continue, and the

unequal opportunities to participate in the political

process will also continue.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: I'm sort of curious why you

didn't put this in a posture where we'd have a final

order so we don't have this permanent injunction still

pending. Why didn't you get the judge to just say this

is not only my temporary ruling, this is my permanent

ruling, and then we don't have this mootness issue?

MR. OLSEN: In -- in hindsight, that would have

been a better way to proceed. I wasn't involved at the

trial court level, so I don't have any further insight

onto that.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: It's a real procedural mess the

way we have it now.

MR. OLSEN: Well, it is, and it's also a legal mess

because there has been no higher court, no appellate

court, that has ever pronounced a clear standard in

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

cases like this. Most of the cases that have reached

the appellate courts are vote dilution cases that are

markedly different from --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: Do you say the same thing as the

Department of Justice on interpreting the statute or am 6 I --

MR. OLSEN: I -- I can't tell you that I said the

same thing.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: What do you (unintelligible) --

MR. OLSEN: I meant to say the same thing.

JUDGE CALLAHAN: -- (unintelligible). I think they

said something a little bit different than you did

because to me you were writing out number two. They

were reading in number two, but prefacing it with

"opportunity." But you said, no, it is

(unintelligible) an "and."

MR. OLSEN: Perhaps I wasn't clear. The statute

says what it says. We believe that in both denial

cases, the part about electing representatives, which

was added to the statute in the context of vote

dilution cases to essentially correct what the Congress

viewed as a Supreme Court error in construing the

statute, it was all in the contest of vote dilution

cases.

And I reread the Senate report yesterday, and it

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

1 goes on and on talking about opportunities,

opportunities, opportunities. And the only time we see

the language "and to elect representatives" is in the

context of the discussion to fix what Congress viewed

as the --

JUDGE CALLAHAN: So you are reading it differently

than they are.

MR. OLSEN: If I'm -- if I'm saying that, I'm not

meaning to. If we look at Chisom versus Roemer --

JUDGE FLETCHER: Let's cut to the chase. Do you

agree with the government's construction of this

statute as expressed in the government's amicus brief?

MR. OLSEN: Yes.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Yes or no question.

MR. OLSEN: That's a yes.

JUDGE FLETCHER: Yes, okay.

MR. OLSEN: I may not have articulated that well,

but that's a yes.

I have only got a few seconds left. In essence,

the county's argument is that the county is able to

discriminate in ways limited only by its imagination,

but so long as Indians are elected at local levels to

some extent, there can be no voting rights violation.

That's not Congress's intent, and that's not what the

law says. And if we look at Chisom versus Roemer, any

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

denial or abridgment of the right to vote is a voting

rights violation. It says that flat out.

Thank you.

JUDGE SILVERMAN: Thank you. Thanks to all

counsel. Case (unintelligible) is submitted. We will

stand in recess. 7

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY 605-338-8898

STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA )

:SS CERTIFICATE

COUNTY OF MINNEHAHA )

I, Kerry Lange, Court Reporter and Notary Public in

the above-named County and State, certify that the

above-entitled recording was transcribed by me, and the

foregoing Pages 1 - 54, inclusive, are a true and correct

transcript of said recording to the best of my ability.

Dated at Sioux Falls, South Dakota, this 28th day

of October, 2013.

_________________________ Kerry Lange

15 Commission Expires: 7/12/17

DAKOTAH REPORTING AGENCY

605-338-8898

Updated April 18, 2023